Wait On That Abortion

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Outlawing anything does not stop it. What's your point? That without perfect enforcement no law is worth having?

Gun control, for instance, penalizes legal gun owners, makes them defenseless, yet the criminal who buys his guns illegally is unaffected.

We still have drunk drivers despite repeated attempts to lower blood alcohol limits, adding sobriety checkpoints, and presumed guilt if a breathalyzer is refused.

We still have rampant prostitution even though it is illegal everywhere but in a couple places in Nevada.

And you speak of unwanted pregnancy as if it's as inevitable as the law of gravity, yet you credit those having an abortion as having weighed some huge "choice".

So people are too weak or unthinking to avoid getting unwillingly pregnant, yet these same people are so brilliant as to make a perfectly informed decision regarding if or when to kill their offspring?

All of those things, guns, drunk driving -- those harm real, living people. I just have a very hard time understanding the thinking that values the "rights" of a hypothetical human being with no ability to survive, no functioning (or formed to the point of being productive) organs over the rights of a sentient, living human being not being forced to be an incubator for 9 months against her will.

But I respect a woman's ability to make her own choices about her own body, and would never be so presumptuous as to think I should have any say over what someone else does with their own body. And yes, that includes the choice to be sexually active, potentially resulting in pregnancy if birth control fails, etc, and believing that the choice to be sexually active does not deny you the later choice to not carry to term a pregnancy that could be dangerous, unwanted, a child you can't afford to take good care of, or any of the other numerous reasons a woman might choose abortion.

The argument about abortion, no matter what words are used, is an awful lot more about women than it is about babies, and controlling their bodies and controlling their choices. I don't want anyone telling me what to do with my body, so it only stands to reason that I should shut up and MYOFB about what a woman, going through something I will NEVER go through in my life, should do with her body.

The thing I'm most hopeful about, and still have a good feeling about, is that this fantasy of yours where any woman who feels inclined to use her vagina for anything is then automatically indebted to be an incubator for some ball of DNA against her will, is unlikely to become the law of the land.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

All of those things, guns, drunk driving -- those harm real, living people. I just have a very hard time understanding the thinking that values the "rights" of a hypothetical human being with no ability to survive, no functioning (or formed to the point of being productive) organs over the rights of a sentient, living human being not being forced to be an incubator for 9 months against her will.

But I respect a woman's ability to make her own choices about her own body, and would never be so presumptuous as to think I should have any say over what someone else does with their own body. And yes, that includes the choice to be sexually active, potentially resulting in pregnancy if birth control fails, etc, and believing that the choice to be sexually active does not deny you the later choice to not carry to term a pregnancy that could be dangerous, unwanted, a child you can't afford to take good care of, or any of the other numerous reasons a woman might choose abortion.

The argument about abortion, no matter what words are used, is an awful lot more about women than it is about babies, and controlling their bodies and controlling their choices. I don't want anyone telling me what to do with my body, so it only stands to reason that I should shut up and MYOFB about what a woman, going through something I will NEVER go through in my life, should do with her body.

The thing I'm most hopeful about, and still have a good feeling about, is that this fantasy of yours where any woman who feels inclined to use her vagina for anything is then automatically indebted to be an incubator for some ball of DNA against her will, is unlikely to become the law of the land.

The whole problem is: it's not just her body. Her body is all the cells having her DNA. The cells having different DNA is another person. Yes, dependent and growing, but another person nonetheless.

Many of us think it is much more about the baby. That's the whole point of this butchery, is it not? We're not talking about plastic surgery here.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

The whole problem is: it's not just her body. Her body is all the cells having her DNA. The cells having different DNA is another person. Yes, dependent and growing, but another person nonetheless.

Many of us think it is much more about the baby. That's the whole point of this butchery, is it not? We're not talking about plastic surgery here.

You are deliberately using inflammatory false equivalency terms - "a person" "butchery" "murder".

Try making your argument using more realistic descriptors.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

You are deliberately using inflammatory false equivalency terms - "a person" "butchery" "murder".

Try making your argument using more realistic descriptors.

That's a difference of opinion.

Those who believe life begins at conception also believe abortion is a murderous act.

The uniqueness of the DNA indicates the presence of a unique individual at whatever state of development. That does not depend on any one organ or biological structure, as many of us also don't believe in euthanasia for the elderly. The functioning or non-functioning of any one organ does not grant or deprive one of "person" status. The first artificial heart recipient, Barney Clark, did not cease to be a human being when his heart was removed and replaced with the Jarvik-7. People with brain damage or special mental challenges are not less of a person. Nor are people who have lost limbs. With the case of a developing human being there is also the fact that, left alone, they will grow and enhance into having all those parts and ablilties, and that's really what the pro-abortion people want to prevent: the responsibility of caring for and raising their child.

And I am familiar with what the procedures are, especially the "partial birth" variety, and if that's not butchery, I don't know what would qualify.

[Riot]

That's a difference of opinion.

Nonsense. Medicine doesn't use those terms, those words are inappropriate to the subject matter. Those words murder butchery baby (when discussing an aggregate of 8 dividing cells, calling it a "baby"? ) are used only by those trying to inflame passions against abortion.

Those who believe life begins at conception also believe abortion is a murderous act.

Many do, but not everyone does. I don't.

The uniqueness of the DNA indicates the presence of a unique individual at whatever state of development.

Then why are you not calling in-vitro fertilization clinics murder centers? At least be consistent with that argument.

With the case of a developing human being there is also the fact that, left alone, they will grow and enhance into having all those parts and ablilties, and that's really what the pro-abortion people want to prevent: the responsibility of caring for and raising their child.

Many people who choose to terminate a pregnancy think long and hard about the lifetime commitment to raising a child. Which is why they choose abortion.

If those words regarding care and raising were true, the anti-abortion crowd would be eagerly financing the care and raising of those children they forced into birth, offering classes on child rearing help, etc. They most certainly do not. In fact, the majority actively support defunding of those programs.

And I am familiar with what the procedures are, especially the "partial birth" variety, and if that's not butchery, I don't know what would qualify.

Then you realize that "partial birth abortions" are indeed extremely rare, most certainly not what we are talking about when we talk about elective abortion, and not permitted in most jurisdictions.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

The argument about abortion, no matter what words are used, is an awful lot more about women than it is about babies, and controlling their bodies and controlling their choices

Precisely. It is literally government forcing women to have babies. It is government overreach in it's most terrible form.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

Precisely. It is literally government forcing women to have babies they became pregnant with. It is government staying out of people's bedrooms in it's most simple form.

Fixed that for you.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Fixed that for you.

See Brian's posts.