Greatest Living Racehorse?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

He set the pace in one of three route races and there's an anecdote about Frankel asking Ramsey not to send Roses in May early in the Classic. That's enough evidence for some that Ghostzapper was an intractable speedball who'd get burned up by the speed horses of Cigar's day.

Hell hath no fury like a miffed self-styled martyr scorned.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Point is that Roses in May and horses of his ilk would always be a thorn in Ghostzapper's side, at least when it came to classic distances.

Doesn't their one matchup against each other refute that argument a bit?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Doesn't there one matchup against each other refute that argument a bit?

Don't you get it? The race was fixed so that Roses in May wouldn't pressure Ghostzapper early. Otherwise he totally would've run GZ into the ground.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I agree with you. But how about if they ran a race every month for a year? How many would Cigar have won? At least 6, IMO. GZ would have crashed after 4-5.

Durability and consistency are also elements of greatness.

Like all hypotheticals - including the one I brought up - there's no way to know for sure. Obviously Cigar deserves a lot of credit for the sheer number of big races he won....something Ghostzapper didn't come close to equalling.

While you are correct in saying that those factors are also "elements of greatness," I think versatility matters some too. There just aren't a lot of horses that I can think of in recent memory (including Cigar) who had the ability to run absolutely brilliant sprints like GZ did in the Vosburgh and the Tom Fool and then come back and easily defeat really good route horses like Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect going 10f.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You didn't make much of a defense for the allegedly pace-invulnerable Ghostzapper's near upset in the 2004 Woodward.

I think beating a horse of Saint Liam's caliber (no matter the margin) is a point in GZ's favor.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

I'm quite sure Miraja can defend her opinion.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.....and the sex change.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Don't you get it? The race was fixed so that Roses in May wouldn't pressure Ghostzapper early. Otherwise he totally would've run GZ into the ground.

The point you made earlier in the thread is really the key.
Different people are going to define "greatness" differently.

If people want to call Cigar the greatest alive today....fine. I think they can make a good argument for that. Personally I would go with Ghostzapper, but for people who favor accomplishments far above brilliance, the choice of Cigar makes sense. That doesn't bother me.

The only thing that bothers me is when certain people say things on this thread like there is "absolutely, positively, no question" Cigar is the best. Umm....yeah there is.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Doesn't there one matchup against each other refute that argument a bit?

Not if you lend any credence to the story that Bobby Frankel persuaded the Roses In May team to avoid a speed duel between the two, turning the Classic into basically a merry-go-round race.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

I wouldn't call Presidentialaffair or Zoffinger or Private Lap top class rivals.

Ghostzapper would have no business losing that race under any circumstances.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think beating a horse of Saint Liam's caliber (no matter the margin) is a point in GZ's favor.

I disagree with regards to the margin of victory. I dominant horse that typically wins his races by open lengths suddenly winning by a mere neck suggests that he might have been, among other possibilities, compromised by race dynamics.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Not if you lend any credence to the story that Bobby Frankel persuaded the Roses In May team to avoid a speed duel between the two, turning the Classic into basically a merry-go-round race.

Why would they have needed persuading on that matter? Did the connections think that Roses in May would have somehow benefitted from such a battle before Frankel talked them out of it? That doesn't make any sense at all.
It seems pretty obvious that those two battling it out on the front end would most likely have only benefitted Pleasantly Perfect and/or Birdstone.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Why would they have needed persuading on that matter? Did the connections think that Roses in May would have somehow benefitted from such a battle before Frankel talked them out of it? That doesn't make any sense at all.
It seems pretty obvious that those two battling it out on the front end would most likely have only benefitted Pleasantly Perfect and Birdstone.

which was what i understood was the gist of the conversation all along. supposedly ramsey was told that if he tried to duel gz, neither would win. if he didn't, one of them would.. essentially what happened. now, whether ramsey had to have that explained to him or not-well, who knows?!?!

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I disagree with regards to the margin of victory. I dominant horse that typically wins his races by open lengths suddenly winning by a mere neck suggests that he might have been, among other possibilities, compromised by race dynamics.

So let's say (just for the sake of argument) that you're right and he was "compromised by race dynamics" that day.

Isn't the fact that he ran a 114 BSF and defeated an excellent horse while being so compromised a testament to GZ's greatness?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Why would they have needed persuading on that matter? Did the connections think that Roses in May would have somehow benefitted from such a battle before Frankel talked them out of it? That doesn't make any sense at all.
It seems pretty obvious that those two battling it out on the front end would most likely have only benefitted Pleasantly Perfect and Birdstone.

That's true, however, Ghostzapper and Roses In May were not entry mates, either. Roses In May for all intents and purposes was a confirmed front runner. If the Whitney and Woodward were any indication, both horses could have conceivably gone a lot faster in a more competitively run race.

Ghostzapper drew the rail, and 99.9% of the time would have most likely suffered for it, but Frankel was able to secure a free pass.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

So let's say (just for the sake of argument) that you're right and he was "compromised by race dynamics" that day.

Isn't the fact that he ran a 114 BSF and defeated an excellent horse while being so compromised a testament to GZ's greatness?

You're letting the words that jilted poster keeps putting in my mouth get in the way.

I never said Ghostzapper wasn't great. I merely said, at classic distances, he'd be vulnerable in heavy pace scenarios. Thus, I could see a horse like Cigar getting the better of him, at least some of the time.

Not completely outlandish, IMO.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I wouldn't call Presidentialaffair or Zoffinger or Private Lap top class rivals.

Ghostzapper would have no business losing that race under any circumstances.

Ghostzapper ran a 128 under those conditions in the iselin. If you want to use the 114 beyer as support, can't I use the 128 to contradict regardless of opposition?

He ran his lifetime best beyer around two turns against a speedball. Doesn't this refute your theory?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Ghostzapper ran a 128 under those conditions in the iselin. If you want to use the 114 beyer as support, can't I use the 128 to contradict regardless of opposition?

He ran his lifetime best beyer around two turns against a speedball. Doesn't this refute your theory?

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Not exactly.
Roses in May was a darn nice horse.
Krim was....umm....something else.