Greatest Living Racehorse?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Ghostzapper ran a 128 under those conditions in the iselin. If you want to use the 114 beyer as support, can't I use the 128 to contradict regardless of opposition?

He ran his lifetime best beyer around two turns against a speedball. Doesn't this refute your theory?

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Not exactly.
Roses in May was a darn nice horse.
Krim was....umm....something else.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Not exactly.
Roses in May was a darn nice horse.
Krim was....umm....something else.

Lol

Sorry guys

Drugs...that was beyond facepalm.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace

No, throughout I made a point of saying that he could be made vulnerable by "other quality speed". I wouldn't count Presidentialaffair amongst those (even if he should be, it wouldn't have mattered in the '04 Iselin--there was nobody behind capable of reaping the benefits).

If Roses In May and St. Liam were capable of giving GZ a battle, then certainly it's possible that another quality horse with a closing style would be a threat to him from behind. He never had to face such a scenario. The Iselin field was a joke, the Woodward was (suprisingly, I might add) a match race, and IMO the Classic was a merry-go-round affair.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Ghostzapper was capable of running 3/4s in 1:08 and change. Typically, those horses don't sit in the back in route races. In his 3 routes he was never more than 1.5 away.

As for his two turn races, they were run under ideal conditions for him. Ironically, the Classic shouldn't have gone his way, and yet it did. It would have been interesting to see him overcome some unfavorable race dynamics routing. You can argue that he did in the Woodward, but at the same time, on the basis of BSF and winning margin, it exposed some chinks in the armor.

[dalakhani]

I don't know rolo about the expose thing. St liam ran the race of his life, it was a prep and the dynamics of the race didn't allow for gz to sit mid pack. He still won despite these factors. I think I would be more apt to concede your point if he had things all his way in the Woodward and was still life and death to win.

I know that you are talking routes but his most impressive race to me was the vosburgh. It's hard for me to believe that they couldn't put him back in a route if they wanted.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think I would be more apt to concede your point if he had things all his way in the Woodward and was still life and death to win.

I look at it the other way. If he had an ideal setup in the Woodward and only won by a smidge, I'd be more inclined to throw it out, thinking perhaps something was wrong with him or he simply didn't "fire". I think Ghostzapper was a great horse like most everyone else.

However, the BSF hints that GZ came back down to earth. Why would he have gone backwards? I think having to contest that fast pace with St. Liam is the most logical conclusion (or at least the most identifiable). It would have been interesting to see if a quality closer could have capitalized on that duel. Not sure who was around and in form at the time, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, maybe even The Cliff's Edge or Choctaw Nation.

I know that you are talking routes but his most impressive race to me was the vosburgh. It's hard for me to believe that they couldn't put him back in a route if they wanted.

Yeah, the Vosburgh, at least visually, was his most impressive race. He always looked like he was going to get them in the stretch, but the way he poured it on late was ridiculous. However, he seemed like he had a lot more early speed when he came back, even at shorter distances, going by the Tom Fool and later the Met Mile.

[smartbid09]

Wow! Very hard to say who the best living horse is. I think that most would argue one of these five

Cigar
Ghostzapper
Curlin (Maybe his fans)
Zenyatta
Rachel Alexandra

(These are just off the top of my head - and I have no idea who the best horse is)

I don't know much about him but Sea The Stars looked like an absolute FREAK!

But what a great thread. I would love to hear what Steve Haskin's opinion on this is.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

Wow! Very hard to say who the best living horse is. I think that most would argue one of these five

Cigar
Ghostzapper
Curlin (Maybe his fans)
Zenyatta
Rachel Alexandra.

I think it would be very difficult to make a rational case for any of these three over Holy Bull. I imagine there is at least one irrational case that could be made, but on the whole I think Holy Bull easily bests those last three.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

However, the BSF hints that GZ came back down to earth.

But it was still a higher figure than Cigar ran in the '95 Woodward, or the '95 JCGC, or the '96 MassCap, or the '96 PacClassic.....which he lost....to Dare and Go.

This thread has turned into deconstructing all of Ghostzapper's wins. That's fine. But if we get back to comparing him to Cigar, don't Cigar's less than impressive performances in some of his wins (the '95 JCGC in particular) and some of his losses (the '96 PacClassic) bear some dissection as well?

In a way its a lot of hair-splitting. I think Cigar was an excellent horse, and I'd probably have him second on my list of living horses, but to me he never ran a race comparable to any of Ghostzapper's top performances. Cigar's '95 HGC and BCC were very good races, but I don't even think those two measure up to what GZ did in his last six races. For me that gives GZ the edge.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I look at it the other way. If he had an ideal setup in the Woodward and only won by a smidge, I'd be more inclined to throw it out, thinking perhaps something was wrong with him or he simply didn't "fire".

No "it was only a prep" and "he wasn't fully cranked" like with Blame and Fly Down when both were soundly defeated by Haynesfield without an ideal setup for them and a VERY ideal one for Haynesfield?

You know I'm messing with you - but I agree with you that Ghostzapper's performance in a narrow Woodward win was no worse or better a performance than his ruthlessly fast BC Classic win when he got a base on balls up front - JRV wisely pitched around him on Roses In May instead of dueling with a horse who would have run him into the ground.

To me - if Frankel did some pre-race manuvering to avoid a pace battle - who cares? He was a victim in the prior years Classic when P. Val drew outside of Medaglia D' Oro with Congaree - and basically made life a living hell for him in that race. I think Frankel knew MDO was a ton better than the winner and 3rd place horse in the '03 Classic ... and why let history possibly repeat itself with Ghostzapper when you can use reason to ensure that others see the light to both parties benefit?