Greatest Living Racehorse?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

...it would've been a lot worse for Roses in May. Assuming that Haskin's story is accurate and that Ramsey heeded Frankel's advice, it was the right move. Roses in May never could have run the race that Ghostzapper did.

That's not the point. Point is that Roses in May and horses of his ilk would always be a thorn in Ghostzapper's side, at least when it came to classic distances.

Fortunately, Frankel avoided running him in such races but twice in top company.

Got it, so I can't defend an opinion about a horse's ability without an accompanying desire to get into hours of debate over pretend races.

Didn't say that at all. Miraja brought up the hypothetical Cigar-Ghostzapper matchup that you are so loathe to bother yourself with. I, on the other hand, don't mind wasting "hours" and "pages" on such a debate, so I responded.

I'm still not sure why you involved yourself with it if your not interested in that sort of discussion.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

That's not the point. Point is that Roses in May and horses of his ilk would always be a thorn in Ghostzapper's side, at least when it came to classic distances.

Fortunately, Frankel avoided running him in such races but twice in top company.

Nice job cherry-picking that part of my post. It was an add-on to my original point about Ghostzapper's brilliance. The main point is that had Ghostzapper not drawn the rail, I'm almost positive the Frankel/Ramsey exchange never would've happened (if it happened at all).

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Didn't say that at all. Miraja brought up the hypothetical Cigar-Ghostzapper matchup that you are so loathe to bother yourself with. I, on the other hand, don't mind wasting "hours" and "pages" on such a debate, so I responded.

I'm still not sure why you involved yourself with it if your not interested in that sort of discussion.

Because I thought it was pretty funny that Princess Doreen trashed miraja for using 'hypotheticals', then used one of her own in the very next sentence doubting whether Ghostzapper could've run Cigar's schedule. Hope that satisfies you.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Nice job cherry-picking that part of my post. It was an add-on to my original point about Ghostzapper's brilliance. The main point is that had Ghostzapper not drawn the rail, I'm almost positive the Frankel/Ramsey exchange never would've happened (if it happened at all).

Oh...so it's OK for you to cherry-pick, but not others.

You didn't make much of a defense for the allegedly pace-invulnerable Ghostzapper's near upset in the 2004 Woodward.

Because I thought it was pretty funny that Princess Doreen trashed miraja for using 'hypotheticals', then used one of her own in the very next sentence doubting whether Ghostzapper could've run Cigar's schedule. Hope that satisfies you.

Not really. I have nothing to do with Princess Doreen's posts.

You should have given her the "hypotheticals are a waste of my precious time" lecture, not me.

[GPK]

I had no idea how clueless so many of you are. Everyone knows this title belongs to Peppers Pride. She was undefeated!!! DUHHHH

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by GPK

I had no idea how clueless so many of you are. Everyone knows this title belongs to Peppers Pride. She was undefeated!!! DUHHHH

English Channel is going to be devistated when he hears about this.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

English Channel is going to be devistated when he hears about this.

It's ok....he knows how special he is to me. I tell him every week in the letter I write him and send to Lanes End

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Oh...so it's OK for you to cherry-pick, but not others.

You didn't make much of a defense for the allegedly pace-invulnerable Ghostzapper's near upset in the 2004 Woodward.

Saint Liam was an elite handicap horse and he basically took Ghostzapper to the outer rail in the stretch. Ghostzapper still won and they weren't exactly crawling home. That hardly proves anything about Ghostzapper's supposed tactical failures.

Ghostzapper was never keen or rank early in any of his route races. He let Saint Liam go early in the Woodward and he tracked Presidentialaffair in the Iselin. He took the lead in the Classic because he drew the rail. He proved over and over when sprinting that as long as you kept him outside of horses, he had no problem waiting for his cue. Suggesting he couldn't rate against top flight speed horses is silly.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Saint Liam was an elite handicap horse and he basically took Ghostzapper to the outer rail in the stretch. Ghostzapper still won and they weren't exactly crawling home. That hardly proves anything about Ghostzapper's supposed tactical failures.

Ghostzapper was never keen or rank early in any of his route races. He let Saint Liam go early in the Woodward and he tracked Presidentialaffair in the Iselin. He took the lead in the Classic because he drew the rail. He proved over and over when sprinting that as long as you kept him outside of horses, he had no problem waiting for his cue. Suggesting he couldn't rate against top flight speed horses is silly.

I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, except for St Liam being elite. Thats a stretch. He was good and fortunate. In 2 of his biggest races he lost as a heavy favorite to Commentator and Rock Hard Ten. Then Dutrow had to cheat to beat Commentator. Then he won the worse BC Classic I can remember. Rock Hard Tens late scratch made it even softer.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You didn't make much of a defense for the allegedly pace-invulnerable Ghostzapper's near upset in the 2004 Woodward.

I think beating a horse of Saint Liam's caliber (no matter the margin) is a point in GZ's favor.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think beating a horse of Saint Liam's caliber (no matter the margin) is a point in GZ's favor.

I disagree with regards to the margin of victory. I dominant horse that typically wins his races by open lengths suddenly winning by a mere neck suggests that he might have been, among other possibilities, compromised by race dynamics.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I disagree with regards to the margin of victory. I dominant horse that typically wins his races by open lengths suddenly winning by a mere neck suggests that he might have been, among other possibilities, compromised by race dynamics.

So let's say (just for the sake of argument) that you're right and he was "compromised by race dynamics" that day.

Isn't the fact that he ran a 114 BSF and defeated an excellent horse while being so compromised a testament to GZ's greatness?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

So let's say (just for the sake of argument) that you're right and he was "compromised by race dynamics" that day.

Isn't the fact that he ran a 114 BSF and defeated an excellent horse while being so compromised a testament to GZ's greatness?

You're letting the words that jilted poster keeps putting in my mouth get in the way.

I never said Ghostzapper wasn't great. I merely said, at classic distances, he'd be vulnerable in heavy pace scenarios. Thus, I could see a horse like Cigar getting the better of him, at least some of the time.

Not completely outlandish, IMO.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Because I thought it was pretty funny that Princess Doreen trashed miraja for using 'hypotheticals', then used one of her own in the very next sentence doubting whether Ghostzapper could've run Cigar's schedule. Hope that satisfies you.

Disagreeing is trashing? I didn't trash anyone, and I'm quite sure Miraja can defend her opinion. I personally find it useless to discuss hypotheticals - they can't be proven. Tearing down one horse's accomplishments to prop up another denigrates them both. I posted a hypothetical in response to Miraja's which prompts another hypothetical, and so on, and so on. It gets ridiculous after awhile.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

I'm quite sure Miraja can defend her opinion.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.....and the sex change.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

That's not the point. Point is that Roses in May and horses of his ilk would always be a thorn in Ghostzapper's side, at least when it came to classic distances.

Fortunately, Frankel avoided running him in such races but twice in top company.

But why? What I appreciated about Ghostzapper more than anything else besides his utter brilliance was his versatility. He could literally run at any pace from any part of the track. What evidence is there that he was vulnerable to pace at ANY distance?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But why? What I appreciated about Ghostzapper more than anything else besides his utter brilliance was his versatility. He could literally run at any pace from any part of the track. What evidence is there that he was vulnerable to pace at ANY distance?

He set the pace in one of three route races and there's an anecdote about Frankel asking Ramsey not to send Roses in May early in the Classic. That's enough evidence for some that Ghostzapper was an intractable speedball who'd get burned up by the speed horses of Cigar's day.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

He set the pace in one of three route races and there's an anecdote about Frankel asking Ramsey not to send Roses in May early in the Classic. That's enough evidence for some that Ghostzapper was an intractable speedball who'd get burned up by the speed horses of Cigar's day.

Hell hath no fury like a miffed self-styled martyr scorned.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But why? What I appreciated about Ghostzapper more than anything else besides his utter brilliance was his versatility. He could literally run at any pace from any part of the track. What evidence is there that he was vulnerable to pace at ANY distance?

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

I wouldn't call Presidentialaffair or Zoffinger or Private Lap top class rivals.

Ghostzapper would have no business losing that race under any circumstances.