Rachel confirmed for Personal Ensign

[copying]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Got Koko was that year's Anabaa's Creation?

You made this up, right?

Got Koko was the first filly (and only 3rd ever) to sweep the La Canada series in nearly 20 years. She won the Gr 1 7f La Brea, the Gr 2 8.5f El Encino, and the Gr 2 9f La Canada in succession. In the final leg, she defeated Sightseek, who was probably the only other contemperary mare that could hold a candle to Azeri.

Of course, this all took place before the Clement Hirsch that year and, of course, Got Koko came right back to beat Azeri in the Lady's Secret.

I didn't say Got Koko was that years' AC -- All the easterners were saying that. They were saying Azeri was beating the same old overmatched allowance horses over and over again -- the same argument they now use against Zenyatta.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by copying

I didn't say Got Koko was that years' AC -- All the easterners were saying that. They were saying Azeri was beating the same old overmatched allowance horses over and over again -- the same argument they now use against Zenyatta.

but....it's true.


keep reading from those with a zenyatta bias how she travelled to the ab to take on rachel as tho it was a brave act. john shirreffs is a smart man, and a savvy trainer. he hasn't enjoyed the successes he's achieved by being otherwise. what better time to take on a good horse than after a long layoff? shirreffs had every advantage going in, and he knew that. he had a horse that hadn't missed a beat, who hadn't had a tough season the previous year. everything was right for him, and wrong for rachel-it's so obvious.
the fact they haven't done anything different with the mare since, and won't, is also abundantly clear. she won't leave california. i'll be surprised at this point if she leaves before becoming a broodmare.

[copying]

Originally Posted by Danzig

but....it's true.


keep reading from those with a zenyatta bias how she travelled to the ab to take on rachel as tho it was a brave act. john shirreffs is a smart man, and a savvy trainer. he hasn't enjoyed the successes he's achieved by being otherwise. what better time to take on a good horse than after a long layoff? shirreffs had every advantage going in, and he knew that. he had a horse that hadn't missed a beat, who hadn't had a tough season the previous year. everything was right for him, and wrong for rachel-it's so obvious.
the fact they haven't done anything different with the mare since, and won't, is also abundantly clear. she won't leave california. i'll be surprised at this point if she leaves before becoming a broodmare.

But now, after Azeri's been retired, those same east coast elite acknowledge Azeri's greatness and say maybe those fields she beat were not so bad after all. They will eventually with Zenyatta too -- it just will be years after she is retired.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by copying

But now, after Azeri's been retired, those same east coast elite acknowledge Azeri's greatness and say maybe those fields she beat were not so bad after all. They will eventually with Zenyatta too -- it just will be years after she is retired.

This is likely.

Because years from now people will say things like, "hey, that 3rd-level allowance race that Anabaa's Creation ran 5th in before almost beating Zenyatta wasn't so bad after all, right? And those 15 straight races that Dance To My Tune lost before almost beating Zenyatta weren't so bad, right? I mean, give her some credit, she won a race in 2007!"

Problem is that Got Koko and Sightseek were actually good horses with proven records. Trying to compare them to the garbage that Zenyatta has beaten is laughable. And to try to think that "years after Zenyatta is retired," everyone will forget just what was behind Zenyatta is even more hilarious.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is likely.

Because years from now people will say things like, "hey, that 3rd-level allowance race that Anabaa's Creation ran 5th in before almost beating Zenyatta wasn't so bad after all, right? And those 15 straight races that Dance To My Tune lost before almost beating Zenyatta weren't so bad, right? I mean, give her some credit, she won a race in 2007!"

Problem is that Got Koko and Sightseek were actually good horses with proven records. Trying to compare them to the garbage that Zenyatta has beaten is laughable. And to try to think that "years after Zenyatta is retired," everyone will forget just what was behind Zenyatta is even more hilarious.

or they will see an undefeated mare that won 2 Breeders Cup Classics and not even question the animals she beat.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is likely.


Problem is that Got Koko and Sightseek were actually good horses with proven records. Trying to compare them to the garbage that Zenyatta has beaten is laughable. And to try to think that "years after Zenyatta is retired," everyone will forget just what was behind Zenyatta is even more hilarious.

There were few bigger fans of Azeri than I was but she never beat a field as good as last years classic, not even close really.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

There were few bigger fans of Azeri than I was but she never beat a field as good as last years classic, not even close really.

Top to bottom talent-wise, of course not.

But it's impossible to compare what Azeri beat on the dirt to what last year's Classic, the country's biggest "dirt" race, included in terms of talent when it was full of mostly non-dirt horses and was not run on dirt. Part of the game, yadda, yadda, I know that and have no problem with it. But saying that Gio Ponti and Twice Over rounding out a trifecta is better than anything Azeri beat in a race is an unsustainable comparison, because put all of them on the Churchill dirt, and you've got a good race, and then 20 lengths back to everything Zenyatta beat.

But again -- sticking the head in the sand and hanging a hat on one career race to try to prove eternal greatness just won't cut it....didn't cut it for HOY of the last year and won't cut it for future thinking on Zenyatta, which is why races throughout the year matter, and why these garbage races against garbage opponents don't stack up at ALL to what Azeri did.

As Doug said earlier, and I've said probably here and several other places in the recent past -- she may well be GREAT. She may well be one of the greatest horses to ever live; she certainly seems to have the talent to fulfill all of the hyperbole and mouth breathing we hear from her fans -- but I want to see it, I don't just want to take everyone's word for it. And so far, she has about 1.5 races in her cap that actually make her important, and a bunch of other ones in which she beat horses I would have a chance of dead-heating with jumping in a potato sack.

Show me how great she is. Alas, being undefeated is what they clearly care about more at this point in time, and that's a feat to be commended -- but it doesn't make people wondering about her rightful place in history "haters," it makes them analytical because we actually want to see something great before we anoint something great.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Top to bottom talent-wise, of course not.

But it's impossible to compare what Azeri beat on the dirt to what last year's Classic, the country's biggest "dirt" race, included in terms of talent when it was full of mostly non-dirt horses and was not run on dirt. Part of the game, yadda, yadda, I know that and have no problem with it. But saying that Gio Ponti and Twice Over rounding out a trifecta is better than anything Azeri beat in a race is an unsustainable comparison, because put all of them on the Churchill dirt, and you've got a good race, and then 20 lengths back to everything Zenyatta beat.

But again -- sticking the head in the sand and hanging a hat on one career race to try to prove eternal greatness just won't cut it....didn't cut it for HOY of the last year and won't cut it for future thinking on Zenyatta, which is why races throughout the year matter, and why these garbage races against garbage opponents don't stack up at ALL to what Azeri did.

As Doug said earlier, and I've said probably here and several other places in the recent past -- she may well be GREAT. She may well be one of the greatest horses to ever live; she certainly seems to have the talent to fulfill all of the hyperbole and mouth breathing we hear from her fans -- but I want to see it, I don't just want to take everyone's word for it. And so far, she has about 1.5 races in her cap that actually make her important, and a bunch of other ones in which she beat horses I would have a chance of dead-heating with jumping in a potato sack.

Show me how great she is. Alas, being undefeated is what they clearly care about more at this point in time, and that's a feat to be commended -- but it doesn't make people wondering about her rightful place in history "haters," it makes them analytical because we actually want to see something great before we anoint something great.

well she will get a chance to prove something to you on dirt at CD like you say. I have no clue what you would say if she wins, or heck runs great in that race because no 6 year old has ever won it, heck no horse has ever won 3 breeders cup races, heck no horse has even who two different events in the BC, and surely none has done it over two different surfaces (syn and dirt, or turn and dirt).

Heres hoping, would be the meltdown of all meltdowns on this board.

[DaTruth]

When the quality of the field that Zenyatta beat in the Classic is called into question, her supporters often point out that a Derby winner and a Belmont winner were in that field. Usually forgotten is that Azeri also beat a Derby winner (Funny Cide) and a Belmont winner (Birdstone) when she ran 5th behind Ghostzapper in the 2004 Classic.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

There were few bigger fans of Azeri than I was but she never beat a field as good as last years classic, not even close really.

she never beat a field like it... but her 5th in the classic wasnt that bad. In fact anybody who ran in last years classic (including Z) would have had a hard time finishing 5th to that Ghostzapper classic.

[slotdirt]

That 2004 Classic was loaded.