Good God

[_ed_]

It was an absolutely amazing performance, but I'm inclined to think it was a freak.

It must have come as a surprise to even those closely connected with the horse - wouldn't Ryan Moore have had the choice of rides among the Stoute runners in the race? I know jockeys sometimes get it wrong, but 17 lengths wrong?

I can imagine Moore having some affection for Workforce for giving him a Derby win, but I don't think that would have really swayed him if he had any inkling that Harbinger might prove to be 17 lengths superior.

And it's not like sticking with Workforce would net better results in the long term - Workforce is hardly likely to run at four.

[Indian Charlie]

I would not write off Workforce just yet.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by brockguy

The last time I can think of a race like this was the 2003 Lockinge when Hawk Wing demolished a proper G1 field and got a ridiculously high mark which was eventually scaled down. However, on some lines of form, he could have been rated the best horse of all time, a bit like Saturday's race.

The big Hawk Wing win is a lot harder for someone with an American racing background to appreciate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiXbsSCdGLs

It came in one of those goofy straight line no-turn mile races we never see over here - in the rain - and he was allowed a free ride on a totally uncontested early lead.

In our turf races, you tend to get larger margin of victories and gaps between horses in the rare instances that they run while it's raining out.

Hawk Wing rallied from 8th to finish a well clear 2nd on yielding ground in the 12f English Derby .. that huge 8f win was the only time in his life he ever made the lead - and he did it so easily without anyone contesting it and at a distance of just one mile for a horse who had no trouble seeing out 12 furlongs.

Obviously, the performance itself was beyond amazing.. but you did have some smoke and mirrors in play ... while Harbinger came from mid-pack on firm ground in weather conditions that looked picture perfect.

I looked up Hawk Wing's form - and he only ran one more time after this. That start came in the Queen Anne .. where instead of galloping on a loose lead, he was back in mid-pack early. He was beaten double digit lengths in a total non-effort - obviously something BADLY amiss. He never ran again. Tillerman, whom he beat by 24+ lengths in his romp was 2nd in that Queen Anne .. a full 6.5 lengths in front of him.

The Ragozin and Thoro-Graph sheet people who make figures in our country would call that "bouncing to the moon" and they'd probably be bragging on their boards the following day about how they predicted the huge top figure to lead to serious impending doom.

[CSC]

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best, he didn't act well or wasn't as effective to what the Brits like to refer to as when there is 'cut' in the ground. This is why I always regarded High Chapparal to be superior to him. He was more versatile where Kinane once even referred to him as a lazy horse that only did what was required of him in works and races.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best,

No he didn't.

The two biggest wins of his career were the Group 1 Eclipse and Group 1 Lockinge ... his easy win in the Eclipse came on yielding ground and his 11 lengths win in the Lockinge came while it was raining.

He was 2nd in the English Derby - 12 lengths ahead of 3rd place - on yielding as well.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No he didn't.

The two biggest wins of his career were the Group 1 Eclipse and Group 1 Lockinge ... his easy win in the Eclipse came on yielding ground and his 11 lengths win in the Lockinge came while it was raining.

He was 2nd in the English Derby - 12 lengths ahead of 3rd place - on yielding as well.

I know that what it says in the past p's, but I wish I could reproduce Aiden's quotes and the conversations I had with my Brit contact, I remember them well when it came to the big 3 in Aiden's stable that year. HW was much better on fast ground, obviously he struggled on dirt and when the ground wasn't hard or certainly he didn't run to his VAST ability.

[CSC]

MichAel Clower and Bill Barber

HAWK WING is set to reappear in the Juddmonte Lockinge Stakes on Saturday provided the going at Newbury is good or faster - setting up a fascinating clash with his Ascot conqueror Where Or When and Breeders' Cup Mile hero Domedriver.

The trio were among 15 to stand their ground for the Group 1 contest yesterday. Domedriver - who was

reported to be "looking fantastic" by Alan Cooper, racing manager to owners the Niarchos family, over the weekend - is Coral's 2-1 favourite for the race, with Where Or When

100-30 and Hawk Wing 4-1.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

You said "he needed fast ground to be at his best" and any ground other than fast was his "achilles heel"

Here is his career form:




He ran 3 times on yielding ground - once easily winning a Group 1, once easily winning a Group 2, and the other time running 2nd in the English Derby at 12 furlongs to eventual 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner High Chapperal - he was 12 lengths clear of 3rd place finisher (eventual Dubai World Cup winner Moon Ballad)

While his 11 length win technically came on good ground - it started to rain right before the race.

After his career was over - only an idiot would think he disliked wet ground. Horses who dislike wet ground get drowned over it on multiple occasions with no success.

[CSC]

Wait a sec...

[Indian Charlie]

I know of many times that trainers felt a certain way about a horse and were dead wrong.

Why would this trainer be immune to that?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

CSC, You have no idea what you're talking about in regard to any form of racing in any country.

You should try your hand at greyhound or steeplechase racing ... you'll have a lot better luck at fooling a few people into thinking you know what you're talking about at those two sports.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

CSC, You have no idea what you're talk about in regard to any form of racing in any country.

You should try your hand at greyhound or steeplechase racing ... you'll have a lot better luck at fooling a few people into thinking you know what you're talking about at those two sports.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You said "he needed fast ground to be at his best" and any ground other than fast was his "achilles heel"

Here is his career form:




He ran 3 times on yielding ground - once easily winning a Group 1, once easily winning a Group 2, and the other time running 2nd in the English Derby at 12 furlongs to eventual 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner High Chapperal - he was 12 lengths clear of 3rd place finisher (eventual Dubai World Cup winner Moon Ballad)

While his 11 length win technically came on good ground - it started to rain right before the race.

After his career was over - only an idiot would think he disliked wet ground. Horses who dislike wet ground get drowned over it on multiple occasions with no success.

From the trainer of Hawk Wing, Less effective on soft ground.

Byline: Tony O'hehir

A HISTORY-making 2,000 Guineas treble is already in the bag, yet Aidan O'Brien Aidan P. O'Brien (born [1]]], is an Irish horse racing trainer. He is the private trainer for John Magnier and his associates at Coolmore Stud and heads up the training operation at Ballydoyle Stables in County Tipperary. is being

ultra-cautious, even by his standards, about his triple challenge for today's race.

O'Brien was avoiding inquisitive journalists like the plague at

Epsom yesterday as the rain-softened ground raised further doubts about the effectiveness of the long-time favourite Hawk Wing Hawk Wing was a racehorse, foaled in 1999, and trained by Aidan O'Brien.

He was the top two-year old of 2001 in the UK & Ireland, by virtue of a two and a half length win in the National Stakes. .

As trainer of Hawk Wing and High Chaparral
For the American TV series see: The High Chaparral

[CSC]

IDS was what 16 or something when these horses raced, and he who knows more about Coolmore raced horses than Aiden O' Brien and especially whether his horses are more effective on what type of ground they run on.

In europe trainer's do concern themselves with this, where someone that actually trained Hawk Wing would certainly know as Aiden has stated numerous times he is better on firmer going, not from using past p's as a barometer but horsemanship. I will gladly side with Aiden on this one.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Epsom yesterday as the rain-softened ground raised further doubts about the effectiveness of the long-time favourite Hawk Wing Hawk Wing was a racehorse, foaled in 1999, and trained by Aidan O'Brien.

And yet O'Brien went ahead and ran him in back to back races on yielding ground in the English Derby and Eclipse - and he ran tremendous races both times.

What's your next trick going to be ... find quotes from Hassinger and Mott about why they feel Cigar can't handle dirt and belongs on turf?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

not from using past p's as a barometer but horsemanship.

Not from using Past performances as a barometer - I suppose The Green Monkey was an all-time great horse.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

And yet O'Brien went ahead and ran him in back to back races on yielding ground in the English Derby and Eclipse - and he ran tremendous races both times.

What's your next trick going to be ... find quotes from Hassinger and Mott about why they feel Cigar can't handle dirt and belongs on turf?

What trick. I posted that Hawk Wing was more effective on faster ground due to conversations I had with a knowledgable overseas racing fan, I followed Euro racing then, doubt it if you wish. At that time most knew that Hawk Wing was a tremendous talent, another point I made. But he didn't act his best with cut in the ground. You post past p's claiming he could run extraordinarily well when the ground was soft. I am just telling you at that time there was concern from his trainer, from the british papers that he wouldn't run his best if the ground wasn't fast. I don't know why you doubt what I say or remember and honestly I don't care. But I am posting what was said then and I am sure there are some British racing fans that remember this time of racing and perhaps collaborate Aiden's thoughts back then.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by CSC

What trick. I posted that Hawk Wing was more effective on faster ground due to conversations I had with a knowledgable overseas racing fan, I followed Euro racing then, doubt it if you wish. At that time most knew that Hawk Wing was a tremendous talent, another point I made. But he didn't act his best with cut in the ground. You post past p's claiming he could run extraordinarily well when the ground was soft. I am just telling you at that time there was concern from his trainer, from the british papers that he wouldn't run his best if the ground wasn't fast. I don't know why you doubt what I say or remember and honestly I don't care. But I am posting what was said then and I am sure there are some British racing fans that remember this time of racing and perhaps collaborate Aiden's thoughts back then.

I think the problem not lies in your memory of such things, but in Aiden's estimation of his horse's ability on firm vs wet ground.

CLEARLY he was wrong.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Being a complete idiot, though, CSC couldn't help but be completely, 100% wrong.

He first says this ...

Originally Posted by CSC

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best, he didn't act well or wasn't as effective to what the Brits like to refer to as when there is 'cut' in the ground.

And instead of backing off ... he defends it by saying that he doesn't use how a horse performs as a barometer .. he just uses "horsemanship" .... and I guess his idea of good horsemanship involves guesses at what a horse probably won't like that later prove to be poor guesses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Being a complete idiot, though, CSC couldn't help but be completely, 100% wrong.

He first says this ...



And instead of backing off ... he defends it by saying that he doesn't use how a horse performs as a barometer .. he just uses "horsemanship" .... and I guess his idea of good horsemanship involves guesses at what a horse probably won't like that later prove to be poor guesses.

No, he's basically using the rationale that his trainer knows better about the horse than we do. He falls into that common trap where people believe that someone with limited brains that is closer to a situation automatically knows better than someone who is much smarter, but not tied directly to the situation.

So, despite what is clear to everyones eyes, since some idiot 'insider' says something completely ridiculous, it must be right.