Good God

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You said "he needed fast ground to be at his best" and any ground other than fast was his "achilles heel"

Here is his career form:




He ran 3 times on yielding ground - once easily winning a Group 1, once easily winning a Group 2, and the other time running 2nd in the English Derby at 12 furlongs to eventual 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner High Chapperal - he was 12 lengths clear of 3rd place finisher (eventual Dubai World Cup winner Moon Ballad)

While his 11 length win technically came on good ground - it started to rain right before the race.

After his career was over - only an idiot would think he disliked wet ground. Horses who dislike wet ground get drowned over it on multiple occasions with no success.

From the trainer of Hawk Wing, Less effective on soft ground.

Byline: Tony O'hehir

A HISTORY-making 2,000 Guineas treble is already in the bag, yet Aidan O'Brien Aidan P. O'Brien (born [1]]], is an Irish horse racing trainer. He is the private trainer for John Magnier and his associates at Coolmore Stud and heads up the training operation at Ballydoyle Stables in County Tipperary. is being

ultra-cautious, even by his standards, about his triple challenge for today's race.

O'Brien was avoiding inquisitive journalists like the plague at

Epsom yesterday as the rain-softened ground raised further doubts about the effectiveness of the long-time favourite Hawk Wing Hawk Wing was a racehorse, foaled in 1999, and trained by Aidan O'Brien.

He was the top two-year old of 2001 in the UK & Ireland, by virtue of a two and a half length win in the National Stakes. .

As trainer of Hawk Wing and High Chaparral
For the American TV series see: The High Chaparral

[CSC]

IDS was what 16 or something when these horses raced, and he who knows more about Coolmore raced horses than Aiden O' Brien and especially whether his horses are more effective on what type of ground they run on.

In europe trainer's do concern themselves with this, where someone that actually trained Hawk Wing would certainly know as Aiden has stated numerous times he is better on firmer going, not from using past p's as a barometer but horsemanship. I will gladly side with Aiden on this one.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

not from using past p's as a barometer but horsemanship.

Not from using Past performances as a barometer - I suppose The Green Monkey was an all-time great horse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Epsom yesterday as the rain-softened ground raised further doubts about the effectiveness of the long-time favourite Hawk Wing Hawk Wing was a racehorse, foaled in 1999, and trained by Aidan O'Brien.

And yet O'Brien went ahead and ran him in back to back races on yielding ground in the English Derby and Eclipse - and he ran tremendous races both times.

What's your next trick going to be ... find quotes from Hassinger and Mott about why they feel Cigar can't handle dirt and belongs on turf?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

And yet O'Brien went ahead and ran him in back to back races on yielding ground in the English Derby and Eclipse - and he ran tremendous races both times.

What's your next trick going to be ... find quotes from Hassinger and Mott about why they feel Cigar can't handle dirt and belongs on turf?

What trick. I posted that Hawk Wing was more effective on faster ground due to conversations I had with a knowledgable overseas racing fan, I followed Euro racing then, doubt it if you wish. At that time most knew that Hawk Wing was a tremendous talent, another point I made. But he didn't act his best with cut in the ground. You post past p's claiming he could run extraordinarily well when the ground was soft. I am just telling you at that time there was concern from his trainer, from the british papers that he wouldn't run his best if the ground wasn't fast. I don't know why you doubt what I say or remember and honestly I don't care. But I am posting what was said then and I am sure there are some British racing fans that remember this time of racing and perhaps collaborate Aiden's thoughts back then.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by CSC

What trick. I posted that Hawk Wing was more effective on faster ground due to conversations I had with a knowledgable overseas racing fan, I followed Euro racing then, doubt it if you wish. At that time most knew that Hawk Wing was a tremendous talent, another point I made. But he didn't act his best with cut in the ground. You post past p's claiming he could run extraordinarily well when the ground was soft. I am just telling you at that time there was concern from his trainer, from the british papers that he wouldn't run his best if the ground wasn't fast. I don't know why you doubt what I say or remember and honestly I don't care. But I am posting what was said then and I am sure there are some British racing fans that remember this time of racing and perhaps collaborate Aiden's thoughts back then.

I think the problem not lies in your memory of such things, but in Aiden's estimation of his horse's ability on firm vs wet ground.

CLEARLY he was wrong.