Good God

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Fantastic post.

Drugs I agree with above - it was..

He gets a RPR of 135 for it - That sounded quite low but it sounds like theyve taken a very conservative view of it

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/hom...280182452.0112

The last time I can think of a race like this was the 2003 Lockinge when Hawk Wing demolished a proper G1 field and got a ridiculously high mark which was eventually scaled down. However, on some lines of form, he could have been rated the best horse of all time, a bit like Saturday's race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Drugs I agree with above - it was..

He gets a RPR of 135 for it - That sounded quite low but it sounds like theyve taken a very conservative view of it

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/hom...280182452.0112

The last time I can think of a race like this was the 2003 Lockinge when Hawk Wing demolished a proper G1 field and got a ridiculously high mark which was eventually scaled down. However, on some lines of form, he could have been rated the best horse of all time, a bit like Saturday's race.

i don't think he ever duplicated that effort, did he? i remember him coming over for the classic that year, he didn't do much. a shame, as he was a nice horse. another bred here and taken overseas to shine; i think he was a PA bred?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't think he ever duplicated that effort, did he? i remember him coming over for the classic that year, he didn't do much. a shame, as he was a nice horse. another bred here and taken overseas to shine; i think he was a PA bred?

Hawk Wing was a KY bred. For a minute I thought he might have been a Strawbridge PA bred, sold at auction to Coolmore, but if memory serves me correctly he was a Coolmore homebred.



Great thread guys. I don't know what to add other than that's in the top 3 performances I've ever seen on turf. Stunning turn of foot in the lane.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by philcski

Hawk Wing was a KY bred. For a minute I thought he might have been a Strawbridge PA bred, sold at auction to Coolmore, but if memory serves me correctly he was a Coolmore homebred.



Great thread guys. I don't know what to add other than that's in the top 3 performances I've ever seen on turf. Stunning turn of foot in the lane.

ok, thanks. one of those back in his day was a pa bred, maybe a filly running about the same time as him. edit-then again, maybe not. just looked up nebraska tornado, but she's also ky-bred...

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Danzig

ok, thanks. one of those back in his day was a pa bred, maybe a filly running about the same time as him. edit-then again, maybe not. just looked up nebraska tornado, but she's also ky-bred...

Are you thinking of With Anticipation?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by philcski

Are you thinking of With Anticipation?

hellifiknow

[_ed_]

It was an absolutely amazing performance, but I'm inclined to think it was a freak.

It must have come as a surprise to even those closely connected with the horse - wouldn't Ryan Moore have had the choice of rides among the Stoute runners in the race? I know jockeys sometimes get it wrong, but 17 lengths wrong?

I can imagine Moore having some affection for Workforce for giving him a Derby win, but I don't think that would have really swayed him if he had any inkling that Harbinger might prove to be 17 lengths superior.

And it's not like sticking with Workforce would net better results in the long term - Workforce is hardly likely to run at four.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by philcski

Hawk Wing was a KY bred. For a minute I thought he might have been a Strawbridge PA bred, sold at auction to Coolmore, but if memory serves me correctly he was a Coolmore homebred.

Hill 'n' Dale

[CSC]

I remember conversing with a knowledgable British Horseracing fan about the time when Aiden O'Brien had Rock Of Gibralter, High Chapparal, and Hawk Wing in the same stable all racing as 3 yr olds and he thought Hawk Wing was the best of the 3, as it turned out in terms of winning grade 1's he was the least accomplished but in terms of ability he was very bullish on his ability. He was out of the Windsfields farm(Northern Dancer raced for the same outfit) race mare La Lorgnette, a filly good enough to win the Queen's Plate. But that is saying quite alot considering the other 2's accomplishments on track.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by brockguy

The last time I can think of a race like this was the 2003 Lockinge when Hawk Wing demolished a proper G1 field and got a ridiculously high mark which was eventually scaled down. However, on some lines of form, he could have been rated the best horse of all time, a bit like Saturday's race.

The big Hawk Wing win is a lot harder for someone with an American racing background to appreciate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiXbsSCdGLs

It came in one of those goofy straight line no-turn mile races we never see over here - in the rain - and he was allowed a free ride on a totally uncontested early lead.

In our turf races, you tend to get larger margin of victories and gaps between horses in the rare instances that they run while it's raining out.

Hawk Wing rallied from 8th to finish a well clear 2nd on yielding ground in the 12f English Derby .. that huge 8f win was the only time in his life he ever made the lead - and he did it so easily without anyone contesting it and at a distance of just one mile for a horse who had no trouble seeing out 12 furlongs.

Obviously, the performance itself was beyond amazing.. but you did have some smoke and mirrors in play ... while Harbinger came from mid-pack on firm ground in weather conditions that looked picture perfect.

I looked up Hawk Wing's form - and he only ran one more time after this. That start came in the Queen Anne .. where instead of galloping on a loose lead, he was back in mid-pack early. He was beaten double digit lengths in a total non-effort - obviously something BADLY amiss. He never ran again. Tillerman, whom he beat by 24+ lengths in his romp was 2nd in that Queen Anne .. a full 6.5 lengths in front of him.

The Ragozin and Thoro-Graph sheet people who make figures in our country would call that "bouncing to the moon" and they'd probably be bragging on their boards the following day about how they predicted the huge top figure to lead to serious impending doom.

[CSC]

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best, he didn't act well or wasn't as effective to what the Brits like to refer to as when there is 'cut' in the ground. This is why I always regarded High Chapparal to be superior to him. He was more versatile where Kinane once even referred to him as a lazy horse that only did what was required of him in works and races.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best,

No he didn't.

The two biggest wins of his career were the Group 1 Eclipse and Group 1 Lockinge ... his easy win in the Eclipse came on yielding ground and his 11 lengths win in the Lockinge came while it was raining.

He was 2nd in the English Derby - 12 lengths ahead of 3rd place - on yielding as well.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No he didn't.

The two biggest wins of his career were the Group 1 Eclipse and Group 1 Lockinge ... his easy win in the Eclipse came on yielding ground and his 11 lengths win in the Lockinge came while it was raining.

He was 2nd in the English Derby - 12 lengths ahead of 3rd place - on yielding as well.

I know that what it says in the past p's, but I wish I could reproduce Aiden's quotes and the conversations I had with my Brit contact, I remember them well when it came to the big 3 in Aiden's stable that year. HW was much better on fast ground, obviously he struggled on dirt and when the ground wasn't hard or certainly he didn't run to his VAST ability.

[CSC]

MichAel Clower and Bill Barber

HAWK WING is set to reappear in the Juddmonte Lockinge Stakes on Saturday provided the going at Newbury is good or faster - setting up a fascinating clash with his Ascot conqueror Where Or When and Breeders' Cup Mile hero Domedriver.

The trio were among 15 to stand their ground for the Group 1 contest yesterday. Domedriver - who was

reported to be "looking fantastic" by Alan Cooper, racing manager to owners the Niarchos family, over the weekend - is Coral's 2-1 favourite for the race, with Where Or When

100-30 and Hawk Wing 4-1.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

You said "he needed fast ground to be at his best" and any ground other than fast was his "achilles heel"

Here is his career form:




He ran 3 times on yielding ground - once easily winning a Group 1, once easily winning a Group 2, and the other time running 2nd in the English Derby at 12 furlongs to eventual 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner High Chapperal - he was 12 lengths clear of 3rd place finisher (eventual Dubai World Cup winner Moon Ballad)

While his 11 length win technically came on good ground - it started to rain right before the race.

After his career was over - only an idiot would think he disliked wet ground. Horses who dislike wet ground get drowned over it on multiple occasions with no success.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Being a complete idiot, though, CSC couldn't help but be completely, 100% wrong.

He first says this ...

Originally Posted by CSC

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best, he didn't act well or wasn't as effective to what the Brits like to refer to as when there is 'cut' in the ground.

And instead of backing off ... he defends it by saying that he doesn't use how a horse performs as a barometer .. he just uses "horsemanship" .... and I guess his idea of good horsemanship involves guesses at what a horse probably won't like that later prove to be poor guesses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Being a complete idiot, though, CSC couldn't help but be completely, 100% wrong.

He first says this ...



And instead of backing off ... he defends it by saying that he doesn't use how a horse performs as a barometer .. he just uses "horsemanship" .... and I guess his idea of good horsemanship involves guesses at what a horse probably won't like that later prove to be poor guesses.

No, he's basically using the rationale that his trainer knows better about the horse than we do. He falls into that common trap where people believe that someone with limited brains that is closer to a situation automatically knows better than someone who is much smarter, but not tied directly to the situation.

So, despite what is clear to everyones eyes, since some idiot 'insider' says something completely ridiculous, it must be right.

[CSC]

I don't know if IDrugS knows that in europe they do not solely use the simple ratings as we do in North America, firm, good, soft, yielding. He probably thinks he has nothing to learn in the game anymore, but in an effort to enlighten him, there is more to reading up on past p's than what is offered from the DRF.

Here is the link to Europe's preiminate Horseracing Publication that will end this. Where terms such as Good/Yielding, Good/Soft, Good, Soft apply, a much more accurate detailing of the amount of cut in the ground.

Obcourse he used I guess the DRF past p's to base his entire analysis that Hawk Wing was very effective on yielding ground. But in essence it was labeled as Good To soft in the Eclipse over his hapless stablemate Sholokhov. If this is what he is basing Hawk Wing is effective on softer ground, he is surely wrong. He just won't or cannot admit that he still has a few things to learn about European racing.

Here's Hawk Wing's complete Past p's according to Racing Post. You decide, obcourse the alternative is Coolmore has a dunce running their operation, one that cannot distuinguish ground conditions.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/hor...orse_id=547525

BTW notice the lost to Rock Of Gibralter on actual 'yielding' ground.

[CSC]

Here is the field for the Coral Eclispe that Hawk Wing won on Good to Soft ground, even the IDS would have to admit this was an atrocious field for a Grade 1. All of 5 horses.

Sandown Result
06 Jul 2002
« 3:35 » Coral Eurobet Eclipse Stakes Showcase Race (Class A) (Group 1) (Class 1) (3yo+) (1m2f7y) 1m2f Good To Soft
£188,500.00, £71,500.00, £35,750.00, £16,250.00, £8,125.00, £4,875.00

RESULT RATE RACE Hide all comments in running Show all pedigrees
HORSE/SP AGE WGT TRAINER/JOCKEY OR TS RPR

« 1 6 Hawk Wing (USA) 8/15F 3 8-10 A P O'Brien — * * »
b h Woodman (USA) - La Lorgnette (CAN) (Val De L'Orne) M J Kinane
Held up in 4th, smooth progress 3f out, led well over 1f out, shaken up and stayed on well final furlong (op 1-2 tchd 4-9 in places and 4-7 in places)

« 2 2 2½ Sholokhov (IRE) 14/1 3 8-10 A P O'Brien — * * »
b h Sadler's Wells (USA) - La Meilleure (Lord Gayle) P J Scallan
Led, ridden over 2f out, headed and wandered well over 1f out, not quicken after (op 12-1 tchd 16-1 in a place)

« 3 7 2½ Equerry (USA) 4/1 4 9-7 t Saeed Bin Suroor 113 * * »
b h St Jovite (USA) - Colour Chart (USA) (Mr Prospector) Frankie Dettori
Tracked leader to over 2f out, soon ridden, close up well over 1f out, one pace after (op 7-2)

« 4 1 3½ Imperial Dancer 33/1 4 9-7 M R Channon 114 * * »
b h Primo Dominie - Gorgeous Dancer (IRE) (Nordico) Chris Catlin
Tracked leading pair until 3f out, soon ridden and one pace (op 50-1)

« 5 5 3 Indian Creek 8/1 4 9-7 D R C Elsworth 114 * * »

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Obcourse he used I guess the DRF past p's to base his entire analysis that Hawk Wing was very effective on yielding ground. But in essence it was labeled as Good To soft in the Eclipse

Yielding is an Irish term for Good-to-soft you friggen moron. Good to soft in England means the same exact thing as yielding in Ireland.

Originally Posted by CSC

He just won't or cannot admit that he still has a few things to learn about European racing.

There are a whole lot of things I don't know about European racing.

You - on the other hand - are a hopeless jackass.