A truly bad day for N.J.

[philcski]

I didn't believe this article for one second so I ran the numbers myself for this year's meet thus far.
http://spreadsheets1.google.com/ccc?...cD&hl=en#gid=0

As you can see, at a blended takeout of 18% and a signal cost of 6% (and an assumption that 20% of off-track wagering made in-state; these numbers are not published for NJ but NY averages 25-30%) and $200k a day in purse supplements from the casinos, MP has made over $4 million this meet before expenses and inclusion of revenues from attendance and concessions, plus all of the profits from simulcast at MP both off-season and in-season.

Now, I realize that running a racetrack is a very expensive proposition, but you cannot tell me it's $50k/day when live racing is not being conducted and $100k/day when it is (which would add up to about $4MM since mid-May.) If the entity runs at a net zero it is a huge financial gain for the state in taxes on wagering, claims, and purse earnings- not to mention taxes on payroll, etc.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

I didn't believe this article for one second so I ran the numbers myself for this year's meet thus far.
http://spreadsheets1.google.com/ccc?...cD&hl=en#gid=0

As you can see, at a blended takeout of 18% and a signal cost of 6% (and an assumption that 20% of off-track wagering made in-state; these numbers are not published for NJ but NY averages 25-30%) and $200k a day in purse supplements from the casinos, MP has made over $4 million this meet before expenses and inclusion of revenues from attendance and concessions, plus all of the profits from simulcast at MP both off-season and in-season.

Now, I realize that running a racetrack is a very expensive proposition, but you cannot tell me it's $50k/day when live racing is not being conducted and $100k/day when it is (which would add up to about $4MM since mid-May.) If the entity runs at a net zero it is a huge financial gain for the state in taxes on wagering, claims, and purse earnings- not to mention taxes on payroll, etc.

They are getting less than 4% for their signal.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

They are getting less than 4% for their signal.

Depends on where it's coming from. 3-4% from other tracks, 7-8% from ADW's. NYRA gets the most preferred rate, obviously. I actually talked to Kulina about it.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

Depends on where it's coming from. 3-4% from other tracks, 7-8% from ADW's. NYRA gets the most preferred rate, obviously. I actually talked to Kulina about it.

So, you talked to Kulina about this, and then represented it falsely at 6%. The blended number is below 4%.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So, you talked to Kulina about this, and then represented it falsely at 6%. The blended number is below 4%.

How am I representing it falsely? Like I said, their signal cost is based on what type of provider you are. NYRA gets the best rate, a track like Arlington would be next, a Sam Houston next; then the price jumps for ADW's because (in Kulina's words) "they don't provide a product to wager on in return."

If 50% of OTW is at 3-4%, and 50% is at 7-8%, that's about 5.5-6%. But we're all painfully aware that most wagering is off track these days.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

How am I representing it falsely? Like I said, their signal cost is based on what type of provider you are. NYRA gets the best rate, a track like Arlington would be next, a Sam Houston next; then the price jumps for ADW's because (in Kulina's words) "they don't provide a product to wager on in return."

If 50% of OTW is at 3-4%, and 50% is at 7-8%, that's about 5.5-6%. But we're all painfully aware that most wagering is off track these days.

If you want to quote Bob Kulina a link would be the best way to do him justice.

As for splitting it down the middle....that's an inaccurate representation.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If you want to quote Bob Kulina a link would be the best way to do him justice.

As for splitting it down the middle....that's an inaccurate representation.

Give me a reasonable split if you think that's inaccurate and a rationale for your percentages. The delta of 1% in off track wagering fees is approx. $1.5MM to date so getting this figure right obviously is of utmost importance.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

They are getting less than 4% for their signal.

do any tracks get 6%?

I remember this from the RTIP... I just cant come to grips on how ripped off tracks are from off track, out of state handle.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

do any tracks get 6%?

I remember this from the RTIP... I just cant come to grips on how ripped off tracks are from off track, out of state handle.

I'm not sure if " ripped off " is the right way to say it, as tracks negotiate their simulcast deals. It's obviously a major racing issue.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not sure if " ripped off " is the right way to say it, as tracks negotiate their simulcast deals. It's obviously a major racing issue.

I think it's a great way to say it. The off-track/on-track split is so far from equitable it's a joke, and a major drain on the industry. ADW's are nothing more than used-car dealers yet get paid as producers.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think it's a great way to say it. The off-track/on-track split is so far from equitable it's a joke, and a major drain on the industry. ADW's are nothing more than used-car dealers yet get paid as producers.

None of it really makes sense to me. Its like Frank Stronach made the manual for ADW operations.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think it's a great way to say it. The off-track/on-track split is so far from equitable it's a joke, and a major drain on the industry. ADW's are nothing more than used-car dealers yet get paid as producers.

It's, at best, a poor oversimplification....and at worst a gross misrepresentation.

The tracks set these rates.

What's funny is that when there are impasses when tracks fight for higher fees, message boards get filled with people screaming about the piggish nature of racetracks, yet here they are apparently being " ripped off. " Both arguments can't be true.

It's a complicated discussion.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Does he know you are quoting your conversation on a public message board?

NO, and I didn't want to reveal my information source because it's sensitive information, but you CALLED ME A LIAR.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's, at best, a poor oversimplification....and at worst a gross misrepresentation.

The tracks set these rates.

What's funny is that when there are impasses when tracks fight for higher fees, message boards get filled with people screaming about the piggish nature of racetracks, yet here they are apparently being " ripped off. " Both arguments can't be true.

It's a complicated discussion.

Of course, whatever I say these days is an "oversimplification" and a "misrepresentation".

MY OPINION IS the tracks are getting ripped off. ADW's and OTB's provide very little and get paid too much for it.

I'm done with this thread.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's, at best, a poor oversimplification....and at worst a gross misrepresentation.

The tracks set these rates.

What's funny is that when there are impasses when tracks fight for higher fees, message boards get filled with people screaming about the piggish nature of racetracks, yet here they are apparently being " ripped off. " Both arguments can't be true.

It's a complicated discussion.

I have never once screamed about the piggish nature of the tracks. I'm always on the side of the horsemen / organization that puts on the racing product.

I've always thought the tracks get the raw end of the deal. Obviously, they negotiate the deals, but what are they going to do? Not sell the signal & go out of business?

sorry for the poor oversimplification, or gross misrepresentation

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by philcski

I didn't believe this article for one second so I ran the numbers myself for this year's meet thus far.
http://spreadsheets1.google.com/ccc?...cD&hl=en#gid=0

As you can see, at a blended takeout of 18% and a signal cost of 6% (and an assumption that 20% of off-track wagering made in-state; these numbers are not published for NJ but NY averages 25-30%) and $200k a day in purse supplements from the casinos, MP has made over $4 million this meet before expenses and inclusion of revenues from attendance and concessions, plus all of the profits from simulcast at MP both off-season and in-season.

Now, I realize that running a racetrack is a very expensive proposition, but you cannot tell me it's $50k/day when live racing is not being conducted and $100k/day when it is (which would add up to about $4MM since mid-May.) If the entity runs at a net zero it is a huge financial gain for the state in taxes on wagering, claims, and purse earnings- not to mention taxes on payroll, etc.

you do have to divide that final number you got in half though... horsemen get half the $ usually.

[Antitrust32]

also taxes.. lots of taxes out of those #'s.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

you do have to divide that final number you got in half though... horsemen get half the $ usually.

Yes. It's obviously a little more complicated, but you are essentially correct.