The Boss has passed.

[Cannon Shell]

The poor showings in the 1980s and 1990s would soon change. Steinbrenner hired Howard Spira to uncover damaging information on Winfield and was subsequently suspended from day-to-day team operations by Commissioner Fay Vincent when the plot was revealed. This turn of events allowed management to implement a coherent acquisition/development program without owner interference. General Manager Gene Michael, along with manager Buck Showalter, shifted the club's emphasis from high-priced acquisitions to developing talent through the farm system. This new philosophy developed key players such as outfielder Bernie Williams, shortstop Derek Jeter, catcher Jorge Posada, and pitchers Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera.

The only Championships that had Stienbrenners fingerprints on them were the first two which were for a large part part due to Free Agent signings like Reggie and Catfish Hunter, among the first big money free agent signings.

[slotdirt]

God rest his soul, but dang, was Catfish Hunter just not that good. Worst modern starting pitcher in the HOF, easily.

Detroit isn't a small market team, for what it's worth. Neither are Boston or the Florida Marlins or the Mets, all teams that have won World Series titles in the Steinbrenner era. Toronto is a freaking huge city, albeit Canadian. Philly is what, like fourth largest media market? Atlanta is huge. The only legitimate small market/small payroll team to win the World Series since the Twins in '91 are the Diamondbacks, and I don't recall their payroll being small in 2001.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

God rest his soul, but dang, was Catfish Hunter just not that good. Worst modern starting pitcher in the HOF, easily.

This is debatable. He was not only good but for a 5 year period (1971-1975) extremely good. During that time his record:
111-49
2.65 era
190 starts/96 CG
1.027 whip

He won a single Cy Young but finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th during that time as well.

He won 20 games 5 times in a row (I know wins aren't a great measure but 5 in a row in rare in baseball history)

He is remembered in an unkind light because his last three years he was not very good because of injuries no doubt brought on by the insane number of innings he threw the last year in Oakland and first 2 in NY. He doesn't rank among the very best pitchers in history but he certainly deserved to be inducted.

As for the worst pitcher in modern history, that may be a little harsh
he was a better pitcher or at least as good as:
Phil Niekro
Don Drysdale
Waite Hoyt
Fergie Jenkins
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Don Sutton
Early Wynn

[slotdirt]

Get out of town. All of those guys had superior bodies of work to Hunter, and about a dozen guys who aren't in the HOF also do. Catfish Hunter is firmly esconced in the minds of most baseball experts (read: non-Yankee fans) as clearly the least deserving modern pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Get out of town. All of those guys had superior bodies of work to Hunter, and about a dozen guys who aren't in the HOF also do. Catfish Hunter is firmly esconced in the minds of most baseball experts (read: non-Yankee fans) as clearly the least deserving modern pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

Playing longer doesnt make you a better pitcher. Show me a period where any of those other pitchers was considered the best pitcher in baseball. For the 1st part of the 70's Catfish hunter was easily one of the two or three best pitchers in the game.

Hunters 5 best seasons were better than any of those other guys 5 best seasons.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...itching_simple

[slotdirt]

So, what's your point? Dwight Gooden was one of the two or three best pitchers in baseball for a similar period. Does he deserve to be in the HOF?

Name the one modern pitcher currently enshrined in Cooperstown who had a worse career ERA+ than Catfish Hunter.

[slotdirt]

I can think of 20 players - pitchers and position players - off the top of my head more deserving of Hall of Fame enshrinement than Catfish Hunter. Players with good careers, not a couple good seasons. Hell, Roy Halladay has been a better pitcher for a longer period of time than Catfish Hunter was, and that's just one player currently playing who's probably more deserving of a plaque in Cooperstown than Jim Hunter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

So, what's your point? Dwight Gooden was one of the two or three best pitchers in baseball for a similar period. Does he deserve to be in the HOF?

Name the one modern pitcher currently enshrined in Cooperstown who had a worse career ERA+ than Catfish Hunter.

You are implying that somehow Hunter wasnt a great pitcher when he most certainly was. You want to hold his last three years against him and the fact that he had a shorter career than most.

Dwight Gooden was a better pitcher at his best than any of those other pitchers, but his peak came during the 1st years of his career and his demise was self-induced. If he had 2 or 3 more seasons like his first 5 he too would have been in the HoF.

Hunter's weakness was the HR as he gave up a lot because he wasnt a power pitcher and didnt strikeout a lot of guys. But the idea that he somehow is much worse than the other guys listed is without merit.

[Crown@club]

........................Yrs.........W-L.........ERA.......CG........SHO........ Whip
Don Sutton 23.....324-256...... 3.26...... 178....... 58......... 1.1425
Catfish Hunter 15.....224-166...... 3.26...... 181....... 42......... 1.1342
Jim Bunning 17.....224-184...... 3.27...... 151....... 40......... 1.1789
Clark Griffith 21.....237-146...... 3.31...... 337....... 22......... 1.3127
Fergie Jenkins 19.....284-226...... 3.34...... 267....... 49......... 1.1419
Lefty Gomez 14.....189-102...... 3.34...... 173....... 28......... 1.3524
Phil Niekro 24.....318-274...... 3.35...... 245....... 45......... 1.2681
Robin Roberts 19.....286-245...... 3.41...... 305....... 45......... 1.1697
Burleigh Grimes 19.....270-212...... 3.53...... 314....... 35......... 1.3653
Early Wynn 23.....300-244...... 3.54...... 290....... 49......... 1.3291
Waite Hoyt 21.....237-182...... 3.59...... 226....... 26......... 1.3397
Jesse Haines 19.....210-158...... 3.64...... 208....... 24......... 1.3498
Ted Lyons 21.....260-230...... 3.67...... 356....... 27......... 1.3482
Red Ruffing HOF 22.....273-225...... 3.8........ 335....... 45......... 1.3409

Took Drysdale and Perry out as I figure they are better pitchers. I would put Catfish on par with Sutton. Better than the POS Bunning. Better than Jenkins, Niekro, Robin Roberts.

But I look at this and wonder how in the heck guys like Clark Griffith, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Jessie Haines, Ted Lyons and Red Ruffing are in the HOF?

I guess Early Wynn is in because of the magical number of 300 Wins.

[slotdirt]

Do you have ERA+ available? I think that tells a much better tale for pitchers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

........................Yrs.........W-L.........ERA.......CG........SHO........ Whip
Don Sutton 23.....324-256...... 3.26...... 178....... 58......... 1.1425
Catfish Hunter 15.....224-166...... 3.26...... 181....... 42......... 1.1342
Jim Bunning 17.....224-184...... 3.27...... 151....... 40......... 1.1789
Clark Griffith 21.....237-146...... 3.31...... 337....... 22......... 1.3127
Fergie Jenkins 19.....284-226...... 3.34...... 267....... 49......... 1.1419
Lefty Gomez 14.....189-102...... 3.34...... 173....... 28......... 1.3524
Phil Niekro 24.....318-274...... 3.35...... 245....... 45......... 1.2681
Robin Roberts 19.....286-245...... 3.41...... 305....... 45......... 1.1697
Burleigh Grimes 19.....270-212...... 3.53...... 314....... 35......... 1.3653
Early Wynn 23.....300-244...... 3.54...... 290....... 49......... 1.3291
Waite Hoyt 21.....237-182...... 3.59...... 226....... 26......... 1.3397
Jesse Haines 19.....210-158...... 3.64...... 208....... 24......... 1.3498
Ted Lyons 21.....260-230...... 3.67...... 356....... 27......... 1.3482
Red Ruffing HOF 22.....273-225...... 3.8........ 335....... 45......... 1.3409

Took Drysdale and Perry out as I figure they are better pitchers. I would put Catfish on par with Sutton. Better than the POS Bunning. Better than Jenkins, Niekro, Robin Roberts.

But I look at this and wonder how in the heck guys like Clark Griffith, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Jessie Haines, Ted Lyons and Red Ruffing are in the HOF?

I guess Early Wynn is in because of the magical number of 300 Wins.

I dont know why you would think Drysdale and Perry were so much better. Drysdale pitched right in the middle of the teeth of the best pitchers era in 60 years and his numbers are hardly better than a lot of these guys even with that. Perry had a lot of good years abut had a lot of pretty average years as well.

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont know why you would think Drysdale and Perry were so much better. Drysdale pitched right in the middle of the teeth of the best pitchers era in 60 years and his numbers are hardly better than a lot of these guys even with that. Perry had a lot of good years abut had a lot of pretty average years as well.

I was just looking at pure numbers standpoint.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

I was just looking at pure numbers standpoint.

Interesting stat on Drysdale. In 1965 he hit .300 with 7 HR's and 19 RBI's in 130 ab's. The team leader in HR's that season hit 12 and drysdale hit only 1 fewer HR than the starting 1st baseman, catcher, 2 less than the right fielder, and 3 more than the 3rd baseman. The Dodgers won the World series that year.


In his other 14 seasons he hit over .200 only once (1958) when he hit .227 with 7 HR's. He was a lifetime .186 hitter.

[horseofcourse]

Just another Cleveland sob story. Of course a native Clevelander, Steinbrenner was sure he had the Indians bought in 1971, but then owner Vernon Stouffer made a last second behind the scenes sale to Nick Miletti. Two years later Steinbrenner bought the Yankees for over a million dollars less than what the Indians were sold for two years earlier. What could have been!!

[pointman]

As a lifelong Yankee fan, I had times that I loved and hated Steinbrenner. However, the one constant was his will to win championships. Whether it is good or bad for the game, it has been good to be a Yankee fan. RIP to George and to Bob Sheppard as well.

[the_fat_man]

With all his money he couldn't BUY more than 80 years? No unfair advantage here?

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

I think HIS negatives out weighed ALL he accomplished as a business man.......being very SUCCESSFUL!

R.I.P. George