I need to listen to ATR more often

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

If you owned Zenyatta would you be looking to face Rail Trip in what would figure to be a paceless race (and probably a 4 horse field) at his favorite track? I certainly wouldn't.

At this point I wouldn't care about getting my a.ss kissed running against fillies and mares and I'd actually look to challenge my mare. Of course, I would have taken her to Dubai without a doubt and told Jess Jackson, Charles Cella, and anyone else, the hell with your $5 million, I'm going to run for 10.

This is the problem that I have with this horse. Her fans are so fervent in their belief that she's so great that they're starting to believe what the connections say. If you think Zenyatta is the "greatest mare of your lifetime" and an all-time great, then how the hell do you leave her in the barn when a 10f (her supposed best distance) against a horse with a marginal resume is going on? It's absolutely ludicrous.

Besides, regarding your pace question, listen to Davidowitz, she's impervious to it. And as for CS, the chief green and pink flag waver, I'd be the first to say that Rail Trip is the best horse Zenyatta's beaten who was actually running on their preferred surface.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Besides, regarding your pace question, listen to Davidowitz, she's impervious to it. And as for CS, the chief green and pink flag waver, I'd be the first to say that Rail Trip is the best horse Zenyatta's beaten who was actually running on their preferred surface.

NT

CSC... to be fair the year isn't over after Delmar or the Spa unlike for some horses, you will reserve judgement to who she faces after these meets correct? Wouldn't this be fairer if you are to be truly critical of her campaign?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

At this point I wouldn't care about getting my a.ss kissed running against fillies and mares and I'd actually look to challenge my mare. Of course, I would have taken her to Dubai without a doubt and told Jess Jackson, Charles Cella, and anyone else, the hell with your $5 million, I'm going to run for 10.

This is the problem that I have with this horse. Her fans are so fervent in their belief that she's so great that they're starting to believe what the connections say. If you think Zenyatta is the "greatest mare of your lifetime" and an all-time great, then how the hell do you leave her in the barn when a 10f (her supposed best distance) against a horse with a marginal resume is going on? It's absolutely ludicrous.

Besides, regarding your pace question, listen to Davidowitz, she's impervious to it. And as for CS, the chief green and pink flag waver, I'd be the first to say that Rail Trip is the best horse Zenyatta's beaten who was actually running on their preferred surface.

NT

They're going to challenge their mare against the best colts in the world in November.

I agree with Davidowitz that she is "relatively" impervious to pace. I don't think Davidowitz believes that she is 100% impervious to pace. I think he knows that it is better for her if the pace is fast. Davidowitz never said she could win a match race with Quality Road. I don't think Davidowitz thinks she would win a match-race with Quality Road. And I don't know if any horse in training could beat Rail Trip right now at Hollywood Park.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They're going to challenge their mare against the best colts in the world in November.

I agree with Davidowitz that she is "relatively" impervious to pace. I don't think Davidowitz believes that she is 100% impervious to pace. I think he knows that it is better for her if the pace is fast. Davidowitz never said she could win a match race with Quality Road. I don't think Davidowitz thinks she would win a match-race with Quality Road. And I don't know if any horse in training could beat Rail Trip right now at Hollywood Park.

Rail Trip got a dream trip in a Gr.2 carrying 118lbs, I repeat 118lbs in a GRADE 2. Suddenly he is the Quality Road of the west...some of you guys should think about this, I'm not sure if this was the same mindset I heard for Zardana after she beat Rachel or Unrivaled Belle, but talk about annointing a horse? I give you Rail Trip.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by CSC

Rail Trip got a dream trip in a Gr.2 carrying 118lbs, I repeat 118lbs in a GRADE 2. Suddenly he is the Quality Road of the west...some of you guys should think about this, I'm not sure if this was the same mindset I heard for Zardana after she beat Rachel or Unrivaled Belle, but talk about annointing a horse? I give you Rail Trip.

I agree 100% that Rail Trip is mediocre. That's why Zenyatta's connections running scared sh!tless from the horse is so mind-numbing.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by cakes44

I agree 100% that Rail Trip is mediocre. That's why Zenyatta's connections running scared sh!tless from the horse is so mind-numbing.

I think he's good not mediocre, however let's examine how distorted this has really become. Since everyone is so hung up on the beyers of the 2 races...108 and 103.

What if the weights were reversed... Rail Trip carried 129 and Zenyatta carried 118 in their respective races, what would their beyers be then? They wouldn't be on the same page.

[slotdirt]

I know it's in vogue to say weight is overrated, but weight is overrated.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I know it's in vogue to say weight is overrated, but weight is overrated.

I'm sure if you were betting, it wouldn't. If you like Rail Trip at 129 and you think he could run as well as when he carried 118, well goodluck to you.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think he's good not mediocre, however let's examine how distorted this has really become. Since everyone is so hung up on the beyers of the 2 races...108 and 103.

What if the weights were reversed... Rail Trip carried 129 and Zenyatta carried 118 in their respective races, what would their beyers be then? They wouldn't be on the same page.

I'm not a big numbers guy and I don't have much confidence in the numbers. I trust my eye more than I trust the numbers. But for argument's sake, let's assume that the numbers are correct and the 108 and 103 numbers were correct. How many lengths would 11 pounds cost a horse? I would guess about 1 1/2 lengths. So at equal weights, Rail Trip would have still run faster. If they both caryy 118 pounds, Zenyatta's number moves up 3 points to 106. So Rail Trip still ran faster. Not only that, he was geared down. He could have easily won by another length or two. That would move his number up by an additional 2-4 points.

[slotdirt]

Off topic, but I had a discussion with a Euro the other day on Goldikova beating Paco Boy. They basically gave her no credit and said she only won because she was getting three pounds. He then went on to tell me that a pound is equal to a length in their universe. Pure poppycock.

[NTamm1215]

Keep convincing yourselves that Rail Trip is a s.hitbag and unworthy of a challenge by Zenyatta.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not a big numbers guy and I don't have much confidence in the numbers. I trust my eye more than I trust the numbers. But for argument's sake, let's assume that the numbers are correct and the 108 and 103 numbers were correct. How many lengths would 11 pounds cost a horse? I would guess about 1 1/2 lengths. So at equal weights, Rail Trip would have still run faster. If they both caryy 118 pounds, Zenyatta's number moves up 3 points to 106. So he still ran faster. Not only that, he was geared down. He could have easily won by another length or two. That would move his number up by 2-4 points.

Certain horses hit a threashold with weight, for instance for Zenyatta we know she can run well up to 129, for Rail Trip 129 is a question mark, one that hasn't been answered yet. Until they do it no one can be certain how they will handle it. Regardless some say for every length = 1 lbs, this isn't a concise science, there are some Trainer's that look at weight religiously, as Bobby Frankel once did, we know if he didn't like the weight assignments for a race he would have no qualms scratching a horse. I don't think it's an inconsequencial factor that should just be dismissed nor do I think it's an all determining factor. Every situation is unique, I do believe letting Rail Trip carry 118 in a grade 2 was like handing candy to a child, it couldn't have been any sweeter to Ellis I surmise.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by CSC

Rail Trip got a dream trip in a Gr.2 carrying 118lbs, I repeat 118lbs in a GRADE 2. Suddenly he is the Quality Road of the west...some of you guys should think about this, I'm not sure if this was the same mindset I heard for Zardana after she beat Rachel or Unrivaled Belle, but talk about annointing a horse? I give you Rail Trip.

That last race was hardly the only good race he's ever run. Did you see his performance in the Hollywood Gold Cup last year? He blew them away. I think even the speed-figure guys were impressed with that one. I think he ran a huge number. Didn't he get a 112 Beyer or something like that?