Syn to Dirt Beyer Converter

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Why?

The Pro-Ride at Santa Anita is crazy closer friendly more often than not. It's not uncommon to see horses loafing on the lead through easy fractions and get mowed down by several horses late.

I've seen the charts and research CM Oreo did on it - and it basically confirms the obvious.

In Well Armed's final Dubai World Cup prep he was crawling in a big way and still got ran down.

I think it's more closer friendly than even Keeneland's poly. Evita Argentina steam rolled the boys in the Grade 2 San Vincente - she struggled to close ground when a dull 4th at 3/5 in the Beaumont. Stardom Bound struggled to close big ground when 3rd at 3/5 in the Ashland. Ventura didn't have that same explosive finish she did in the Breeders Cup at Keeneland when she lost the Madison at 2/5. Georgie Boy didn't get his chance. Pioneer of the Nile was 3rd beaten 7 lengths when he ran on it at age 2 in that race Square Eddie dominated.

The example of Well Armed is interesting, the track that day at Dubai was a freeway. I think any American based speed horse worth his salt would have been dangerous on the lead and most likely would have won.

I'm not saying turf horses don't do well at SA post pro ride, that is obvious by last years results in the BC. What I am saying is pro ride is a fair surface for all horses, it's certainly more fairer than traditional dirt. It certainly didn't effect Midnight Lute who has won on both pro ride and traditional dirt.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

What I am saying is pro ride is a fair surface for all horses, it's certainly more fairer than traditional dirt.

I believe horses without good tactical speed should be at a significant disadvantage in your average horse race.

On dirt they are ... on Pro-Ride they aren't.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I believe horses without good tactical speed should be at a significant disadvantage in your average horse race.

On dirt they are ... on Pro-Ride they aren't.

This is the problem in conventional handicapping. The pacesetter in any other type of race is at a distinct disadvantage. In dirt horse racing, with all the biased tracks and other factors, the speed has the advantage. Handicappers come up with creative ways to justify this as it's the 'norm' for them. When fair racing comes along, like what's happening in CALI, KEE, and elsewhere, they don't know how to deal with it. DIRT reigns supreme and what's actually fair racing, POLY (all artificial surfaces) is DEBASED.

Go figure.

As for me, CALI racing, and all other artificial track racing, MAKES SENSE.

[CSC]

I'm going to throw this out for discussion because I am sure no one has these stats, in general do dirt horses have more difficulty adapting to synthetic surfaces? Whereas synthetic horses adapt better to dirt tracks? Or simply stated who adapts better.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm going to throw this out for discussion because I am sure no one has these stats, in general do dirt horses have more difficulty adapting to synthetic surfaces? Whereas synthetic horses adapt better to dirt tracks? Or simply stated who adapts better.

I don't know how many tracks you follow but isn't it become more and more the case that trainers are allowing their horses to run on more surfaces? Not only are horses switching between turf and artificial surfaces (not much of a switch at all) but there's more switching between dirt and turf, as well. Check out what was happening this winter at FG, for example.

In a few years, most horses will be running on ALL surfaces and all those wise tales that horsemen and handicappers have bought into will be a thing of the past. Sadly, and unfortunately, horse players, especially the speed centric ones, will be the last to let go.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I don't know how many tracks you follow but isn't it become more and more the case that trainers are allowing their horses to run on more surfaces? Not only are horses switching between turf and artificial surfaces (not much of a switch at all) but there's more switching between dirt and turf, as well. Check out what was happening this winter at FG, for example.

In a few years, most horses will be running on ALL surfaces and all those wise tales that horsemen and handicappers have bought into will be a thing of the past. Sadly, and unfortunately, horse players, especially the speed centric ones, will be the last to let go.

Acoma is one that comes to mind, she's won on dirt/synth/turf and she is by Empire Maker.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Riot

At Keeneland, the lack of favorites winning is due more, IMO, to the variety of horses (especially young horses) shipping in from all over (mixing of populations that have never run against each other before).

Saratoga has a lot of that ... and yet favorites still win at a solid 106-for-254 (42%) clip in dirt stake races this decade. They are 38-for-105 in turf graded stakes this decade.


On Keeneland's synthetic track - favorites have gone a mind-bogglingly dismal 6-for-54 in stake races.

Street Sense losing to Domincan in a near five way photo is an example of some of the goofy results.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

This is the problem in conventional handicapping. The pacesetter in any other type of race is at a distinct disadvantage. In dirt horse racing, with all the biased tracks and other factors, the speed has the advantage. Handicappers come up with creative ways to justify this as it's the 'norm' for them. When fair racing comes along, like what's happening in CALI, KEE, and elsewhere, they don't know how to deal with it. DIRT reigns supreme and what's actually fair racing, POLY (all artificial surfaces) is DEBASED.

Go figure.

As for me, CALI racing, and all other artificial track racing, MAKES SENSE.

Interesting viewpoint, you basically stated why I like handicapping Hong Kong races so much.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

This is the problem in conventional handicapping. The pacesetter in any other type of race is at a distinct disadvantage. In dirt horse racing, with all the biased tracks and other factors, the speed has the advantage. Handicappers come up with creative ways to justify this as it's the 'norm' for them. When fair racing comes along, like what's happening in CALI, KEE, and elsewhere, they don't know how to deal with it. DIRT reigns supreme and what's actually fair racing, POLY (all artificial surfaces) is DEBASED.

Go figure.

As for me, CALI racing, and all other artificial track racing, MAKES SENSE.

Not true.

Originally Posted by CSC

Acoma is one that comes to mind, she's won on dirt/synth/turf and she is by Empire Maker.

Name the only filly to win a G2 on dirt, G1 on turf, and G1 on synthetic in the same year.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by philcski

Not true.



Name the only filly to win a G2 on dirt, G1 on turf, and G1 on synthetic in the same year.

Forever Together?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Forever Together?

I don't remember Forever Together winning a grade 2 on dirt...Since I don't like cheating, did she?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

I don't remember Forever Together winning a grade 2 on dirt...Since I don't like cheating, did she?

yes

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Forever Together?

Nope. She's only run once on synthetic and was mediocre at best on dirt.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

Nope. She's only run once on synthetic and was mediocre at best on dirt.

Was she trained by Frankel?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

Name the only filly to win a G2 on dirt, G1 on turf, and G1 on synthetic in the same year.

Still think she was better than Rags?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Panty Raid?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Panty Raid?

Yeah, Phil had a sick love affair with her.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It's the West Point filly that beat Rags. I can't for the life of me remember her name though.

Edit - Lear's Princess

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It's the West Point filly that beat Rags. I can't for the life of me remember her name though.

Lears Princess

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Panty Raid?

Yes.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Still think she was better than Rags?

They were a lot closer than given credit for. On dirt, no- Rags to Riches was an outstanding filly, probably the best of the last 3-4 years. On turf or synthetic, maybe. But unfortunately, due to injury and early retirement and because they ran for the same trainer, we never got to find out.