Rachel Alexandra a go for La Troienne

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

especially after what happened with Curlin the year before. What happened with Curlin was that he was over the top and not the same horse, synthetic or dirt. Again, you're deflecting instead of explaining why the immortal Z continues to run against allowance horses in her playpen nine times out of ten. When are the Hall of fame inductions for those Rachel has beaten?


Because, as your fellow Zentologist points out, dirt horses have a tougher time transferring their form to synthetic than vice versa. It's not understandable that Jackson didn't want to have an ultimate showdown between the two on a surface that Zenyatta was far more likely to excel on?

Didn't Rachel win nicely on poly?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by CSC

If Zenyatta stays in California the rest of the year I will be the 1st to criticize her, however she did ship to the Apple Blossom to face Rach, on dirt. So you know what you said is not completely true, we will see a different campaign this year due to them pointing for the BC; however it is also fair to point out Rachel never shipped out west either, nor is she planning to, so I don't understand why she gets a free pass when the other doesn't.

Saratoga, Monmouth, Pimlico, Churchill, Oaklawn, Fairgounds. All that travel last year bought her the pass. I think both of these horses are beasts and really look forward to seeing them face each other. Z gets plenty of respect (well deserved), people like to argue mythical head to heads, this just happens to be one where, if the stars align (pun intended) we will actually get to see it.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yes

[philcski]

Originally Posted by CSC

There's not much confidence from the Rachel camp when you already concede she will lose to Zenyatta out west even without attempting a race, what does that say? Then we come to the Apple Blossom and again they are not confident of facing Zenyatta on their preferred surface. Again that doesn't speak volumes from a faction that believes their horse is superior. Again, I state I believe Rachel is a good horse, a very good horse infact. Great? Not at this point. Better than Zenyatta not even close at this stage, Jess knows this and that is why we now have a last minute entry of Rach in the "Careless Jeweless" La Troienne. But Jess and SA have always been great at cherry picking races haven't they?

I take opposition to this.
1) The premier race in the country for her gender and age (selected by her previous connections, otherwise they probably would have gone in the Derby.)
2) The 2nd jewel of the Triple Crown- against males.
3) A G1 at Belmont Park (very few showed up- understandably on their part.)
4) One of the two "midsummer Derbies"- against males.
5) A G1 at the premier track in the country against older males.

Calling that cherrypicking is crazytalk.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Have you gotten into the sherry? Can we stop the HOY retroactive-apalooza? People had an opinion, they were entitled to vote based on that opinion as it related to 2009, it's done. Two valid horses were up, not 1 and a mule. It was a judgment call and a fair one. You can claim whatever you want within the context of 2009. This year proves nothing about the last.

This is a new year, there are new consequences to everything, and the only vote that can be affected is that of 2010.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by philcski

I take opposition to this.
1) The premier race in the country for her gender and age (selected by her previous connections, otherwise they probably would have gone in the Derby.)
2) The 2nd jewel of the Triple Crown- against males.
3) A G1 at Belmont Park (very few showed up- understandably on their part.)
4) One of the two "midsummer Derbies"- against males.
5) A G1 at the premier track in the country against older males.

Calling that cherrypicking is crazytalk.

Dammit Phil, I gave your other post because it was the best of the thread and now you go and get sucked into this tired tired argument.

I retract my

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Dammit Phil, I gave your other post because it was the best of the thread and now you go and get sucked into this tired tired argument.

I retract my

LOL. DAMMIT!!! I just state the facts,sir.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

I take opposition to this.
1) The premier race in the country for her gender and age (selected by her previous connections, otherwise they probably would have gone in the Derby.)
2) The 2nd jewel of the Triple Crown- against males.
3) A G1 at Belmont Park (very few showed up- understandably on their part.)
4) One of the two "midsummer Derbies"- against males.
5) A G1 at the premier track in the country against older males.

Calling that cherrypicking is crazytalk.

You and I know the only true test that she had last year was the Preakness. List away all you want, she didn't show up when the best competition raced nor did she challenge herself on synthetics, I can't wait for her to prove me wrong this year and try, maybe then we can end this charade when her bubble finally bursts against top flight competition, and not the 2 hamburgers she met in the Woodward...Bullsbay and or Macho Again.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

You and I know the only true test that she had last year was the Preakness. List away all you want, she didn't show up when the best competition raced nor did she challenge herself on synthetics, I can't wait for her to prove me wrong this year and try, maybe then we can end this charade when her bubble finally bursts against top flight competition, and not the 2 hamburgers she met in the Woodward...Bullsbay and or Macho Again.

If you don't think that running her in the Haskell, especially based on what races were available to her at the time, was a test then you're way more clueless than I ever thought.

NT

[philcski]

Originally Posted by CSC

You and I know the only true test that she had last year was the Preakness. List away all you want, she didn't show up when the best competition raced nor did she challenge herself on synthetics, I can't wait for her to prove me wrong this year and try, maybe then we can end this charade when her bubble finally bursts against top flight competition, and not the 2 hamburgers she met in the Woodward...Bullsbay and or Macho Again.

Holy mother of God. You are incorrigible. I give up on this tired, beaten argument.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

There's not much confidence from the Rachel camp when you already concede she will lose to Zenyatta out west even without attempting a race, what does that say? Then we come to the Apple Blossom and again they are not confident of facing Zenyatta on their preferred surface. Again that doesn't speak volumes from a faction that believes their horse is superior. Again, I state I believe Rachel is a good horse, a very good horse infact. Great? Not at this point. Better than Zenyatta not even close at this stage, Jess knows this and that is why we now have a last minute entry of Rach in the "Careless Jeweless" La Troienne. But Jess and SA have always been great at cherry picking races haven't they?

Yeah, they cherry picked the hell out of her races at three. And I'm sure they're ducking Careless Jewel. Just stop it. Did you ever think that perhaps not every single decision they make for RA is with Zenyatta in mind? This pretending that the BCC would've been a fair fight over a surface Rachel never set foot on and one that Zenyatta basically slept on is laughable.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The truely great ones can run on anything IMO.

You must have quite the limited list of great horses then, if success on three different surfaces is a prerequisite.

Originally Posted by Revidere

Didn't Rachel win nicely on poly?

She won an N2L at Keeneland. Do I really have to explain why that's different than the Breeders' Cup at Santa Anita? And I'm sure Curlin would've been dusted by a bunch of European turf horses had the BCC been on dirt. As for your other comment, there's a difference between seeking out top competition and perhaps not finding it (even though I think RA's comp in '09 still outweighed Zenyatta's) and running against the same four or five handpicked tomato cans in your backyard all year.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If you don't think that running her in the Haskell, especially based on what races were available to her at the time, was a test then you're way more clueless than I ever thought.

NT

I know she whipped my boy Summer Bird, I just wish he ran his race that day so we could better gauge how much better she is to him, that is unless one truly believes he is only a half length better than the distance challenged Munnings as the Fanclub seems to do.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

She won an N2L at Keeneland. Do I really have to explain why that's different than the Breeders' Cup at Santa Anita? And I'm sure Curlin would've been dusted by a bunch of European turf horses had the BCC been on dirt. As for your other comment, there's a difference between seeking out top competition and perhaps not finding it (even though I think RA's comp in '09 still outweighed Zenyatta's) and running against the same four or five handpicked tomato cans in your backyard all year.

I didnt compare a N2L to the Breeder's Cup, but she did show an affinity for it. Curlin was all out to beat Past the Point and Wanderin Boy his last two starts before the Breeder's Cup. His loss in the BC gave Jackson an excuse for Rachel not to run on synthetics. My only other point is everyone knew where Zenyatta was last year. Why didnt they (Rachel notwithstanding) ship there to face her? Especially since the Breeder's Cup was in Cali. The argument goes both ways I think.

Was Flashing or Gabby's Golden Gal better than Life is Sweet? Was beating Gio Ponti and Twice Over on a surface they preferred not as impressive as the Haskell or the Woodward.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Revidere

I didnt compare a N2L to the Breeder's Cup, but she did show an affinity for it. Curlin was all out to beat Past the Point and Wanderin Boy his last two starts before the Breeder's Cup. His loss in the BC gave Jackson an excuse for Rachel not to run on synthetics. My only other point is everyone knew where Zenyatta was last year. Why didnt they (Rachel notwithstanding) ship there to face her? Especially since the Breeder's Cup was in Cali. The argument goes both ways I think.

Was Flashing or Gabby's Golden Gal better than Life is Sweet? Was beating Gio Ponti and Twice Over on a surface they preferred not as impressive as the Haskell or the Woodward.

Gio Ponti preferred synthetics? Based on what? And Twice Over? For real? And you're cherry picking some of the lousier horses behind RA and comparing them to the best mare behind Zenyatta.

I think a good horse winning an N2L over a synthetic track doesn't demonstrate an "affinity" for synthetics the way you say. And people are conveniently downplaying the role that the different surface in the BCC played and how much the race's result would be overblown. They knew Zenyatta loved the SA surface. They had no idea how Rachel would like it. They knew the winner would be called the definitively better horse. I would've said it's not worth it as well. Once again, it's demonstrably easier to transfer synthetic form to dirt than vice versa.

[CSC]

Final word until I may need to leave this forum again, I want to leave the fanclub so they can bask again in the afterglow of Rachel's return to her winning ways or one can hope this Fri. If she ever faces Zenyatta, she will be exposed, you heard it here. You guys know I called Summer Bird months in advance of his Belmont win, one of my last posts here before my hiatus was calling the Interactif in the Hall of Fame at Saratoga and I also just called the Derby Trial and yes it sucks being good, but I am telling you Rachel will not beat Zenyatta in the Classic if they do meet down the road. Count on it.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

Final word until I may need to leave this forum again, I want to leave the fanclub so they can bask again in the afterglow of Rachel's return to her winning ways or one can hope this Fri. If she ever faces Zenyatta, she will be exposed, you heard it here. You guys know I called Summer Bird months in advance of his Belmont win, one of my last posts here before my hiatus was calling the Interactif in the Hall of Fame at Saratoga and I also just called the Derby Trial and yes it sucks being good, but I am telling you Rachel will not beat Zenyatta in the Classic if they do meet down the road. Count on it.

We'll be waiting with baited breath for your return Nostradamus.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

Final word until I may need to leave this forum again, I want to leave the fanclub so they can bask again in the afterglow of Rachel's return to her winning ways or one can hope this Fri. If she ever faces Zenyatta, she will be exposed, you heard it here. You guys know I called Summer Bird months in advance of his Belmont win, one of my last posts here before my hiatus was calling the Interactif in the Hall of Fame at Saratoga and I also just called the Derby Trial and yes it sucks being good, but I am telling you Rachel will not beat Zenyatta in the Classic if they do meet down the road. Count on it.

This post should forever go down in the annals of Derby Trail history. You are the best.

NT

[CSC]

DrugS, hacked my account...That wasn't me.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Gio Ponti preferred synthetics? Based on what? And Twice Over? For real? And you're cherry picking some of the lousier horses behind RA and comparing them to the best mare behind Zenyatta.

I think a good horse winning an N2L over a synthetic track doesn't demonstrate an "affinity" for synthetics the way you say. And people are conveniently downplaying the role that the different surface in the BCC played and how much the race's result would be overblown. They knew Zenyatta loved the SA surface. They had no idea how Rachel would like it. They knew the winner would be called the definitively better horse. I would've said it's not worth it as well. Once again, it's demonstrably easier to transfer synthetic form to dirt than vice versa.

Where are the hard and fast statistics for this ?
To me there is a distinct possibility that the most talented 3yos happen to be training in California. If Lookin At Lucky had started his career in New York would he have run a worse race in the Breeders Cup? The statistics have to cover a much broader range than graded stakes to confirm this theory.

I'm sure for every dirt horse that fails to perform up to par on syn. a syn. horse can be found to underperform on dirt.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Gio Ponti preferred synthetics? Based on what? And Twice Over? For real?
Gio Ponti and Twice Over both transferred their grass form to the synthetics. Zenyatta beating them was impressive. Please don't downplay that performance. I didnt even mention Summer Bird, because all the Rachelites (like that?) would say "he was racing on synthetics!!!" He ran his race as well and she dusted him.
And you're cherry picking some of the lousier horses behind RA and comparing them to the best mare behind Zenyatta.

All I heard after the Test was that Flashing joined Gabby's Golden Gal as Grade 1 winners that Rachel soundly thrashed. What other horses were there? Mine that Bird? Musket Man? Macho Again? Bullsbay? Has any of them besides Summer Bird and Flashing even won again?

I think a good horse winning an N2L over a synthetic track doesn't demonstrate an "affinity" for synthetics the way you say. And people are conveniently downplaying the role that the different surface in the BCC played and how much the race's result would be overblown. They knew Zenyatta loved the SA surface. They had no idea how Rachel would like it. They knew the winner would be called the definitively better horse. I would've said it's not worth it as well. Once again, it's demonstrably easier to transfer synthetic form to dirt than vice versa.

That is entirely correct. Which is why running over it once or twice to see how she handled it would might have been something to try. Would it have ruined her reputation? Didn't seem to hurt Curlin's. It's funny, Shirreffs just got killed on this board for "declaring" so early that Zenyatta wouldn't run in the Stephen Foster, while Jackson made his decision in June that Rachel wouldn't run in the Breeder's Cup.

Not sure where this goes from here, but I just want them to remain healthy and happy. If they run against each other, so be it. One great champion will win and the other will go back to the Assmussen barn.