nyra - Page 3

Travis Stone · #41 06-07-2010, 07:34 PM

Having a major race day on a Saturday has no direct correlation to handle performance on Sunday.

Here are the Sunday handles for Sunday's in May on a national level...

5/2/10 - 45,330,842
5/9/10 - 42,532,055
5/16/10 - 44,348,464
5/23/10 - 44,039,399
5/30/10 - 48,772,526

Sunday's typically handle less than Friday's believe it or not. Handle on Sunday is less than the corresponding Thursday more than you might think as well.

The point is Sunday is a quiet day reserved for hardcore players, die hards and the regulars.

The only Sunday after a big race day where I've seen a busier than usual on-track crowd is the day after Derby. In that case, the Derby serves as a good marketing vehicle the day before and creates added interest.

Belmont closing is no where close to the wrong move. They're not passing-up any unusual chance for a big day. And when you factor in employee morale after a big day and long week, it makes more sense.

Besides, who has any money left after Champagne d'Oro, Winchester and Drosselmeyer all win?

Cannon Shell · #42 06-07-2010, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gales0678

sure it is , you can't tell me that there won't be more people at belmont on a nice sunday afternoon than on a nice wednesday afternoon. i have been out there on wednesday afternoon and you can talk to the jockeys as no one is there

the syndicate $$$ , pros $$$ will be in sunday or wednesday , you would get more casual race fans $$$ into that pool if you were open for business on sunday chuck , the pros $$$ alwayss gets in , the guys that has to work during the week may be less inclined to play on a wednesday , but they would play on a sunday

chuck is travers day not as big a day for nyra as belmont day ??? they run up at the spa on sunday , they can run chuck down here too

That is simply not true. You will get far more casual players money having a 4 day lead in. That is a lot of time to promote the carryover, for people to handicap the races and for syndicates to form. The fact is that they had no idea if they were going have a carryover. There is just no demand for the day after the Belmont. Based on the numbers there wasnt a huge demand for Belmont day, let alone the next day. And comparing Saratoga and Belmont is folly. They get 15k on the Sunday before the meet even starts. Complaining about something like this is petty.

Cannon Shell · #43 06-07-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Based on what measure? Saratoga is a freaking ghost town the day after Travers.

Yeah and there are still 5 times more people there than there would be at Belmont on Sunday. LOL!

Cannon Shell · #44 06-07-2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

there is no way that travers day and it's undercard matches up to what belmont park just provided on saturday. and if nyra used to run the day after, and now they don't, one would have to think they had a very, very good reason to make the change.

Of course this is all just a matter of opinion but Travers day and its undercard usually matchup pretty well to Belmont day's card. The difference is that Saratoga averages upwards of 25k people on Sundays and Belmont averages about 5k.

Danzig · #45 06-07-2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Of course this is all just a matter of opinion but Travers day and its undercard usually matchup pretty well to Belmont day's card. The difference is that Saratoga averages upwards of 25k people on Sundays and Belmont averages about 5k.

no doubt it's a nice card, but is it 13 races? at any rate, i can understand taking off the day after an undertaking like that. and between spring and fall, belmont won't miss a sunday card, whereas i'd think saratoga would.

Cannon Shell · #46 06-07-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

no doubt it's a nice card, but is it 13 races? at any rate, i can understand taking off the day after an undertaking like that. and between spring and fall, belmont won't miss a sunday card, whereas i'd think saratoga would.

They usually have at least 12.

Cannon Shell · #47 06-07-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

To me its a legitimate question.

See some good discussion on pro and con. Don't understand the because we have always done it that way thinking. Or making it seem like ludicrous premise. Its legitimate question worthy of discussion.

There was no question. Reread the first post. It is a criticism that most here have proven is unfounded.

You aren't a newbie based on your other posts so surely you realize your contrarian attitude based on your dislike of "the way it has always been done thinking" is not valid since not running on the Sunday following the Belmont is a relatively new idea.

MaTH716 · #48 06-07-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gales0678

sure it is , you can't tell me that there won't be more people at belmont on a nice sunday afternoon than on a nice wednesday afternoon. i have been out there on wednesday afternoon and you can talk to the jockeys as no one is there

the syndicate $$$ , pros $$$ will be in sunday or wednesday , you would get more casual race fans $$$ into that pool if you were open for business on sunday chuck , the pros $$$ alwayss gets in , the guys that has to work during the week may be less inclined to play on a wednesday , but they would play on a sunday

chuck is travers day not as big a day for nyra as belmont day ??? they run up at the spa on sunday , they can run chuck down here too

Come on Marty, How many casual fans do you think are playing the pick 6? While those people might have enjoyed a nice day at Belmont on Sunday, they aren't the ones putting a ton of money into the pools. If you are a player/fan, Saturday was your day. And after watching and betting that card all day Saturday, I'm sure the last thing people wanted to do was pick up a form and have to cap for a monsterous carryover the next day.
Not to mention all the work that had to been done around the faculity after their biggest day of the year.
Just wait till Wednesday, the carryover will still be their and so will the people who intend to bet it.

Linny · #49 06-08-2010, 08:55 AM

In the past, NYRA has run on the day after the Belmont but this year they chose not to. I am not sure of the reasons but my guess would be, in no particular order:
Many huge crowd days when a TC was on the line (they had no idea when presenting the state with their calendar if a TC would be on the line) Cleanup after 100k patron day is a nightmare.

The fact they Memorial Day was the prior Monday AND they added Wed to the week. Usually Wed after a Monday holiday is dark.

The fact that MON has been a horse drain for them and filling good races has been tough.

Comparing Saratoga to Belmont is pointless. Fans would show up at Saratoga if they ran 9 New Jersey bred mule races.

The carryover is irrelevant. There was no way to know that there would be a carryover. In fact, I'd guess just by my recent play on big NYRA days (Belmont, JCGC etc) that more often it's a chalky P6. It's not like, at 7pm on Sat that they could suddenly get a card slated for Sunday because of the C/O. Having the few extra days should have been helpful to bettors and the casual fans that might have added to the ranks on Sunday were probably not playing the P6 anyhow.

NYRA had (realistically speaking) run too many races over the last two weeks between the holiday weekend cards and the 10 and 13 race days on Fr and Sat. They needed the break.

Antitrust32 · #50 06-08-2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

no doubt it's a nice card, but is it 13 races? at any rate, i can understand taking off the day after an undertaking like that. and between spring and fall, belmont won't miss a sunday card, whereas i'd think saratoga would.

yes its 12 - 13 races of equal or better quality

but I dont think people can compare Saratoga's attendance to anywhere else.. simply a different (and better) breed!

Cannon Shell · #51 06-08-2010, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

As far as running so many days, why woudlnt they not run on Thursday then? And run Sunday? If concerned about horse shortage? Cmon this isnt that complicated. If you run a business you have to look at these things.

Compare your average Thursday attendance and handle with average Sunday attendance and handle.

Does someone really want to make the case that Thursday is higher?

Look at May 20 versus May 23

Mind you this isnt scientific but feel very comfortable in saying if you looked at this longer term you would see same results

Do you think that the people who run NYRA didn't take these things into consideration? That someone just flippantly said "hey i'm having a big post Belmont party so we shouln't run on Sunday"?

Or are you just playing the contrarian card in an attempt to make yourself look smarter than everyone else?

Cannon Shell · #52 06-08-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

I'm not posting to play games or be "contrary". I'm also not going to assume that racetrack management thinks long and hard about everything. Especially when you look at state of the game and fans frustration.

I actually like NYRA- think they are better then most.

Just discussing the issue. Dont think its crazy to wonder why they would close on Sunday compared to another day. Or at all. There could be good reasons. Not sure have seen them yet.

There were several reasons given.
1. Cleanup after the big event
2. NYRA having run 10 cards in 11 days.
3. Employees worked unusually long hours on Saturday
4. Hangover effect after big days that other venues have chosen to skip
5. Travis showed that there was no handle bump after the derby or preakness showing that they weren't missing out on an unusually good day of racing.

other potential reasons
6. union wages are cheaper on weekdays
7. potential of a carryover is greater due to the nature of the belmont card and only Gales will argue that leadup time isn't better in these situations

Perhaps these reasons arent good enough for you guys but i find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that taking Sunday off wasn't a good idea.

MaTH716 · #53 06-08-2010, 10:50 AM

I just don't think that anyone is giving consideration to the people that work at the track either. This is their biggest day of the year. Gates opened at (I believe 8:30) for a 11:35 first post. The last race went off at 7:50. It's not like they shut the lights off and go home at 8 o'clock after the last race goes official. I'm thinking that many people were there very late that night, cleaning up after such a big day. Most likely after working there for the entire day. All this coming in a span where they raced 10 times in 11 days.

But then again if they did put together a card for Sunday for the sake of just racing for a 11th time in 12 days and it came up below par, people would have chastised NYRA for not anticipating a carryover. Then they would have bitched and moaned about the crappy card that they would be looking at for such a big carryover.

It just seems like some people like to bitch and moan reguardless of what goes on there.

Travis Stone · #54 06-08-2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

It just seems like some people like to bitch and moan reguardless of what goes on there.

It's the racing fan way.

MaTH716 · #55 06-08-2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

Why is it "bitching and moaning"?

Understand players have been beaten down forever to shut their mouth and take it. Don't see wondering why a business, especially one hurting bad for cash, would run on Thursday instead of Sunday when their own numbers show they do better on Sunday.
What other business in the country would operate like that?

What other businesses customers would be called bitchers and moaners for wanting to send them their dollars?

Sensitive to the employee issue, but lets get real here. Look at all the recent job cuts there. Where has been the groundswell of concern here or anyplace else for those peoples jobs? But now its give the poor people a rest? Dont think could get people to work some OT or something? And again if they took of Thursday wouldnt be an issue.

Besides the employee situation, I just don't know if they could have the venue ready for racing a card on Sunday. Sunset for Saturday was 8:23, the last race went off at 7:50. I have no idea what time everyone got out of Belmont on Saturday, so the staff could start preparing if there was racing the next day. But I'm guessing they wouldn't be able to start to about 9pm at the minimum. I'm not just talking about the grandstand, but the backyard at Belmont which is huge (and I don't believe it's a lighted area either). It's a giant venue, that probably takes some time to clean, plain and simple.

As far as the bitching and moaning goes, I really believe that if they did race on Sunday and the card wasn't up to some people's speed then there would be posted threads about that around here. I just don't understand what the big deal is about one dark Sunday.

Travis Stone · #56 06-08-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

Not a very productive comment or way to make a point.

Ummm sarcasm. But I apologize. I hate being unproductive.

parsixfarms · #57 06-08-2010, 12:51 PM

2008 was the first year that NYRA did not run the Sunday after the Belmont. For two years prior, divisions of the NY Stallion Series were the "feature" races that day, so MaTH716 is probably correct that, if NYRA were running on Sunday with a big carryover and those races as the "featured" attractions, many on here likely would have been complaining about the quality of the card.

For many of the reasons stated elsewhere in here (the 13-race cards on Belmont Day are only a recent phenomenom), I totally understand why they did not run on Sunday. If I had to criticize the recent racing schedule, in the face of what NYRA officials have acknowledged as a dwindling horse population, it was a mistake to run the Wednesday between Memorial Day and Belmont Stakes Day.

Cannon Shell · #58 06-08-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

Why is it "bitching and moaning"?

Understand players have been beaten down forever to shut their mouth and take it. Don't see wondering why a business, especially one hurting bad for cash, would run on Thursday instead of Sunday when their own numbers show they do better on Sunday.

What other business in the country would operate like that?

What other businesses customers would be called bitchers and moaners for wanting to send them their dollars?

Sensitive to the employee issue, but lets get real here. Look at all the recent job cuts there. Where has been the groundswell of concern here or anyplace else for those peoples jobs? But now its give the poor people a rest? Dont think could get people to work some OT or something? And again if they took of Thursday wouldn't be an issue.

Spare us the self pity. I am not particularly concerned for NYRA employees welfare but NYRA management is, which is why this was brought up as a potential reason why they were closed on Sunday. Not because we felt badly for them.

The idea that business on Sunday post-Belmont day is so much better than business on Thursday that all other considerations should be tabled is mistaken. And the irony of people like you always prefacing NYRA with terms like 'cash strapped' ignore the reality that the reason they are cash strapped is that they aren't getting a significant portion of their share of the handle, not that they are making poor management decisions.

I would think that you would be focusing on the final days of Monmouth since you are the Prophet of Doom there as well.

blackthroatedwind · #59 06-08-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

In the past, NYRA has run on the day after the Belmont but this year they chose not to. I am not sure of the reasons but my guess would be, in no particular order:

This was not the first year there was no racing the day after the Belmont.

blackthroatedwind · #60 06-08-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There were several reasons given.
1. Cleanup after the big event
2. NYRA having run 10 cards in 11 days.
3. Employees worked unusually long hours on Saturday
4. Hangover effect after big days that other venues have chosen to skip
5. Travis showed that there was no handle bump after the derby or preakness showing that they weren't missing out on an unusually good day of racing.

other potential reasons
6. union wages are cheaper on weekdays
7. potential of a carryover is greater due to the nature of the belmont card and only Gales will argue that leadup time isn't better in these situations

Perhaps these reasons arent good enough for you guys but i find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that taking Sunday off wasn't a good idea.

It's also important to consider that pretty much 3 to 4 years out of 10 it will be a Triple Crown attempt, and thus a much larger crowd, which makes running the next day even more problematic.