Horseshoes or Homeroom in PA?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah I saw him at Penn the other day clocking some PA bred maiden 7500's.

While in no way can the slot money experience in PA be classified as anything other than a continued missed opportunity the idea that the money is simply flowing to the "super rich and elite" is more or less an outright lie.

Makes you wonder where we are as a country when even GOP politicians are using class warfare to take money from private business for their own benefit?

Of course it is a lie, but the money has been so wasted it will be tough to argue for keeping it. Anytime people point to the good things the money could have been used for, all the opponents have to say is "you've had X years" and blew it. I don't know the X, what is it, 5, 10?

[joeydb]

LOL...like the public school system never wastes any money. Don't hold your breath waiting for the grades to go up if they do kill the race industry and give the money to schools.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course it is a lie, but the money has been so wasted it will be tough to argue for keeping it. Anytime people point to the good things the money could have been used for, all the opponents have to say is "you've had X years" and blew it. I don't know the X, what is it, 5, 10?

No it is not hard to argue for it at all. The facts are pretty clear, this was a business deal between the tracks, state and horsemen. The money is no more the states money than the money sitting in your twinspsires account would be. What they are doing is simply stealing money from private business. Are you ok with the gov't seizing revenue from private business to use to pander to local voters and further the political careers of the bills writers?

What you probably dont realize is that what they are proposing to fund is already provided for by Act 71. The state has already received billions for school funding and more importantly (because education is a nebulous area where no one really has any idea where the money goes) for property tax relief even in areas that have been served. This is simply a pandering for votes trick that will wipe out an entire industry while further enriching the tracks who are giant gambling corporations making 5 times as much money as the horsemen are. If you wanted additional funds from the gambling industry wouldnt you go after the tracks money being they have a whole lot more than the horsemen AND you'd more or less just be lowering corporate profits while barely affecting jobs and economic impact?

Of course the truth that no one wants to admit is that lobbyists from parx and Penn national are probably the ones who crafted the bill considering they have the most to gain from an elimination of racing.

[cmorioles]

I said it wrong. Of course it isn't hard to argue for racing getting the money. I just don't think there is a chance in hell they will keep it no matter how hard it is argued or how right the argument is.

Since the state was in on the agreement, why can't they opt to try to change it?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I said it wrong. Of course it isn't hard to argue for racing getting the money. I just don't think there is a chance in hell they will keep it no matter how hard it is argued or how right the argument is.

Since the state was in on the agreement, why can't they opt to try to change it?

Exactly.

I would say if your track is dependent on slots you better get a backup plan, no way politicians, especially the way the current ways are trending, are going to allow racing to take a big percentage of the casino profits.

While this might have been a self serving case of politics (well they all are) with superficial reasons the next guy is going to wave the "gotta do whats right for the low and middle class", and that argument gets a lot of legislation done, and will be more so in the future.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Exactly.

I would say if your track is dependent on slots you better get a backup plan, no way politicians, especially the way the current ways are trending, are going to allow racing to take a big percentage of the casino profits.

While this might have been a self serving case of politics (well they all are) with superficial reasons the next guy is going to wave the "gotta do whats right for the low and middle class", and that argument gets a lot of legislation done, and will be more so in the future.

Racing in PA gets 13% of the profits. While you may be correct in saying that politicians will eventually steal the money what backup plan do you propose will replace $250 million a year?

While everyone loves to use the subsidy argument against racing the truth is that many industries are subsidized by the govt between direct cash investments, tax credits, tax holidays, etc

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Racing in PA gets 13% of the profits. While you may be correct in saying that politicians will eventually steal the money what backup plan do you propose will replace $250 million a year?

While everyone loves to use the subsidy argument against racing the truth is that many industries are subsidized by the govt between direct cash investments, tax credits, tax holidays, etc

Um a better product, one that can attract bettors and keep them long term, national legislation that would allow for the entire country to legally bet on line, stuff like that.

Subsidies cannot be the defining way the industry survives, which it sounds like it is for many.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Um a better product, one that can attract bettors and keep them long term, national legislation that would allow for the entire country to legally bet on line, stuff like that.

Subsidies cannot be the defining way the industry survives, which it sounds like it is for many.

Yeah I'm sure that they can stimulate a couple billion dollars worth of handle in PA with online betting.

[Cannon Shell]

We have all been through this argument before. The response from the tracks has been silence as usual because they are most likely behind the deal and the horsemen for the most part havent done or said anything. In the end the people in the racing industry in PA are going to get run out of business and racing in this state will die. That of course will effect racing everywhere as even idiot politicians in other states have google and will likely try to copy what will be done here. Maryland is already on shaky grounds from rumblings there and you'd have to be an idiot to think that NY racing is not going to get the shaft soon.

Some people have this vision that there will eventually be just a few tracks left that will beam their signal out to the rest of the world. That will never happen because as soon as the tracks can make money and not have to operate, they will eventually all want to be taking the signal, not giving it.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We have all been through this argument before. The response from the tracks has been silence as usual because they are most likely behind the deal and the horsemen for the most part havent done or said anything. In the end the people in the racing industry in PA are going to get run out of business and racing in this state will die. That of course will effect racing everywhere as even idiot politicians in other states have google and will likely try to copy what will be done here. Maryland is already on shaky grounds from rumblings there and you'd have to be an idiot to think that NY racing is not going to get the shaft soon.

Some people have this vision that there will eventually be just a few tracks left that will beam their signal out to the rest of the world. That will never happen because as soon as the tracks can make money and not have to operate, they will eventually all want to be taking the signal, not giving it.

again, what your essentially saying is as a product racing cannot make it because it cannot come close to funding itself.

Why should it not fail if that is the case, why is it up to slots players to prop up the failing business model?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Exactly.

I would say if your track is dependent on slots you better get a backup plan, no way politicians, especially the way the current ways are trending, are going to allow racing to take a big percentage of the casino profits.

While this might have been a self serving case of politics (well they all are) with superficial reasons the next guy is going to wave the "gotta do whats right for the low and middle class", and that argument gets a lot of legislation done, and will be more so in the future.

Right, this isn't exactly a surprise. Stevie Wonder could see it coming.

It is pretty sad that the money will supposedly be used to help education, i.e. the lower and middle classes, while at the same time that is exactly where the slots money is coming from in the first place.

In the end, racing is going to have to stand on its own, like it or not. In PA, I doubt they can. I'm not even sure if I hope I'm wrong to be honest. I do know we don't need two almost year round tracks and another that gives out insane purses for poor racing a few months a year.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Right, this isn't exactly a surprise. Stevie Wonder could see it coming.

It is pretty sad that the money will supposedly be used to help education, i.e. the lower and middle classes, while at the same time that is exactly where the slots money is coming from in the first place.

In the end, racing is going to have to stand on its own, like it or not. In PA, I doubt they can. I'm not even sure if I hope I'm wrong to be honest. I do know we don't need two almost year round tracks and another that gives out insane purses for poor racing a few months a year.

subsidies turn free market principles upside down.

That crowd would point to say agriculture for example but to me that is apples and oranges, you dont need horse racing to eat.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

subsidies turn free market principles upside down.

That crowd would point to say agriculture for example but to me that is apples and oranges, you dont need horse racing to eat.

True horse racing isnt a necessary item. However when combined with casino gambling it does at least create positive benefits other than simple tax revenue especially considering that we are approaching saturation levels with casinos, at least in the East.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Right, this isn't exactly a surprise. Stevie Wonder could see it coming.

It is pretty sad that the money will supposedly be used to help education, i.e. the lower and middle classes, while at the same time that is exactly where the slots money is coming from in the first place.

In the end, racing is going to have to stand on its own, like it or not. In PA, I doubt they can. I'm not even sure if I hope I'm wrong to be honest. I do know we don't need two almost year round tracks and another that gives out insane purses for poor racing a few months a year.

Racing will never be able to stand on its own without significant govt intervention. I told you this 2 years ago and it is more true now than ever.

You have interests hostile to racing operating tracks! You have competition from casinos everywhere. You have govt's bending over backwards to help casino intersts (see Revel in NJ) while actively working against racing.

There will be no racing without help anywhere. It is getting hard to convince people to breed and own horses at the current purse and breeding incentive levels. What do you think you will see with reductions? Contracting industries generally continue to contract till they are no longer relevant.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Racing will never be able to stand on its own without significant govt intervention. I told you this 2 years ago and it is more true now than ever.

You have interests hostile to racing operating tracks! You have competition from casinos everywhere. You have govt's bending over backwards to help casino intersts (see Revel in NJ) while actively working against racing.

There will be no racing without help anywhere. It is getting hard to convince people to breed and own horses at the current purse and breeding incentive levels. What do you think you will see with reductions? Contracting industries generally continue to contract till they are no longer relevant.

Keep in mind Chuck, I have as much of an interest in racing succeeding as you do, and more interest in seeing as many tracks open as possible.

The business model for racing sucks. Costs are way too high for bettors and horsemen alike. Putting on the show could cost a whole lot less than it does now. But you are right, the tracks will die without subsidies. It was blown a long time ago when simulcasting models were implemented, and later when it was carried over to allow third parties to run ADWs and siphon off tons of money.

The whole thing needs to be blown up. There would be a lot of pain involved, but really I don't see any other way. We keep applying patches to a broken game, and eventually it will just die.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I said it wrong. Of course it isn't hard to argue for racing getting the money. I just don't think there is a chance in hell they will keep it no matter how hard it is argued or how right the argument is.

Since the state was in on the agreement, why can't they opt to try to change it?

The state was a third party to the agreement that doesn't actually provide anything. Legally they can change the agreement just as they can change any law but should we feel comfortable with deals like this where an entire industry will be crippled irreparably? The issue certainly isnt that they can do it but should they be allowed to do it without a fight?

Everyone expected racing to eventually take a haircut and in most states huge mistakes have been made in not trying to preempt them by growing handle to better prepare for the inevitable AND use that growth as proof for keeping the funds. However that doesnt mean (regardless of your feelings about the takeout or other ancillary issues in play here) that politicians can just swoop in and take ALL the money that funds a pretty large industry based on lies and bullshit.

What about the people who have bought farms in the state where PA breds suddenly are worthless? What about the farms that grow hay and straw to sell to these other farms and racetracks and training centers? What about the employees of those people? Racing and breeding has a huge economic impact beyond the backstretch that will for the most part go away. The facts are that the 250 million going to racing interests has a far greater impact into the states economic interests than 250 million taken from the tracks. Why doesnt anyone ask why the tracks are exempted from giving money back?