Most Impressive in Defeat?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think his regular rider would have already known and likely been the person who made the suggestion in the first place?

You say it wouldn't hurt but where do you draw the line in what "the public" should be told before the race?

This is a little different for two reasons. One, it could help educate the public on whip use. Two, it avoids the possible negative repercussions of people betting on horses and thinking the rider didn't give his best. Tell them beforehand, and that isn't an issue.

There are a lot bigger problems in racing than this, I admit that. I just see zero downside to it and some upside, that is all.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This is a little different for two reasons. One, it could help educate the public on whip use. Two, it avoids the possible negative repercussions of people betting on horses and thinking the rider didn't give his best. Tell them beforehand, and that isn't an issue.

There are a lot bigger problems in racing than this, I admit that. I just see zero downside to it and some upside, that is all.

Right but what mechanism is there to report this? Trainers considering instructing their jockeys to go light on the whip call the stewards before the race? And like I said what if they dont listen, or simply react like they have done thousands of time before and instinctively hit the horse anyway? Then anyone who might have bet against the horse because of the no whip instructions would be going crazy.

[jms62]

Why carry a whip if there is no plan on using it?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

Why carry a whip if there is no plan on using it?

Riders are used to carrying them and if the horse lugs out bad believe me the instructions go out the window

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by jms62

Why carry a whip if there is no plan on using it?

Stick can be used to tap on shoulder to prompt lead changes if weight shift doesn't work. Also as prompt being waved in front of eyes to urge horse on..

[TheSpyder]

That's what she said.........

Originally Posted by jms62

Why carry a whip if there is no plan on using it?

[Cannon Shell]

What CJ doesn't seem to understand is there is zero incentive for the trainer to divulge this information to the stewards. Why would they? There is no rule stating that horses have to be hit. If the rider doesn't follow instructions they will lose mounts in that trainer barn which is far bigger penalty than some $500 fine they might face.

Seems like those who aren't actually around the track sometimes seem to forget that there are actual people involved and rarely are they looking to throw the people they do business with under the bus.

The very likely scenario where an announced non hitter is actually hit will cause far more consternation among bettors than a horse who loses that isn't getting whipped would. There is very little to gain from trying to make this a rule.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What CJ doesn't seem to understand is there is zero incentive for the trainer to divulge this information to the stewards. Why would they? There is no rule stating that horses have to be hit. If the rider doesn't follow instructions they will lose mounts in that trainer barn which is far bigger penalty than some $500 fine they might face.

Seems like those who aren't actually around the track sometimes seem to forget that there are actual people involved and rarely are they looking to throw the people they do business with under the bus.

The very likely scenario where an announced non hitter is actually hit will cause far more consternation among bettors than a horse who loses that isn't getting whipped would. There is very little to gain from trying to make this a rule.

The is very little incentive for trainers to divulge anything. That is why rules are made, so they have to do so. This has nothing to do with throwing anybody under the bus. It is about providing information, known beforehand, to bettors. Just like shoes info, blinker info, etc. The whip is equipment, not strategy.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

The is very little incentive for trainers to divulge anything. That is why rules are made, so they have to do so. This has nothing to do with throwing anybody under the bus. It is about providing information, known beforehand, to bettors. Just like shoes info, blinker info, etc. The whip is equipment, not strategy.

Use of the whip is strategy. Like I said why contact the stewards when you can just tell the jockey to go easy with the whip with no consequences? Blinkers, shoes, etc are cut and dry and you can easily determine if they are on or off. Are we going to start planting bugs in the paddock to ensure that trainers aren't ignoring the no whip disclosure? Just far too much trouble for very little value for a situation that occurs relatively infrequently,

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Right but what mechanism is there to report this? Trainers considering instructing their jockeys to go light on the whip call the stewards before the race? And like I said what if they dont listen, or simply react like they have done thousands of time before and instinctively hit the horse anyway? Then anyone who might have bet against the horse because of the no whip instructions would be going crazy.

Go light on the whip and not using it or two different things. If a jockey is told not to use the whip but does anyway, I guess you fine him, just like when they blow the finish line or do something else they shouldn't do.

And again, you report it just like you do no whip. Lets not pretend this has to be some complicated process. It wasn't a spur of the moment, paddock decision not to whip the horse.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Go light on the whip and not using it or two different things. If a jockey is told not to use the whip but does anyway, I guess you fine him, just like when they blow the finish line or do something else they shouldn't do.

And again, you report it just like you do no whip. Lets not pretend this has to be some complicated process. It wasn't a spur of the moment, paddock decision not to whip the horse.

It isnt against the rules to not follow a trainers instructions. Every day at tracks all over the country jockeys dont follow instructions and win. Should they be fined? What if the trainer tells the jockey to go to the front? What if the jockey no comprehende English? What if the trainer changes his mind? What of the horse is lugging in or out badly? You say it doesnt have to be a complicated process but again how exactly is this recorded and where and to whom?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It isnt against the rules to not follow a trainers instructions. Every day at tracks all over the country jockeys dont follow instructions and win. Should they be fined? What if the trainer tells the jockey to go to the front? What if the jockey no comprehende English? What if the trainer changes his mind? What of the horse is lugging in or out badly? You say it doesnt have to be a complicated process but again how exactly is this recorded and where and to whom?

If the trainer doesn't want a horse whipped, he reports such to the stewards like anything else. It is then relayed with all the other information we get.

Strategy and using equipment are two very different things in my opinion. If it is reported a horse won't be whipped, and is, then the jockey can answer for that be it in English or some other language.

We can always find reasons not to do things that inform the bettor. It is easier on everyone. I've said my piece.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If the trainer doesn't want a horse whipped, he reports such to the stewards like anything else. It is then relayed with all the other information we get.

Strategy and using equipment are two very different things in my opinion. If it is reported a horse won't be whipped, and is, then the jockey can answer for that be it in English or some other language.

We can always find reasons not to do things that inform the bettor. It is easier on everyone. I've said my piece.

It isnt nearly as cut and dry as you make it. Strategy and equipment are two different things and instructing a rider to not use the whip is strategy. Asking them not to carry a whip is equipment.