Joel Rosario shifting his tack to NY

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Rosario's agent is one of the most popular people in racing ( for good reason ) and he's also extremely smart. There is little chance he is coming here to fly by the seat of his pants.

That's why I get so amused by the commentary. If some of the "experts" knew Ronnie, most of this thread wouldn't exist.

[freddymo]

The guy is an elite young rider with a world class agent, instead of wondering if he will get mounts, people should be wondering what took so long.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by freddymo

The guy is an elite young rider with a world class agent, instead of wondering if he will get mounts, people should be wondering what took so long.

Very well said, Freddy.

Not a move I would advise. He's 6th in the nation in earnings. That with having a very quiet last 30 days because of chasing the Triple Crown, sadly having to attend to his brother and suspensions.

Not sure what the desired goal would be. Top 5 in the nation in total earnings? Already there. Live Triple Crown mounts? Already there. Breeders' Cup Prospects? Already there. Has won two.

Here's the thing. He's dominant in California. Something that is VERY VERY hard to accomplish. For some reason riders from back east with equal talent have tried it out here and failed. Never understood why but many have crawled home with their tail between their legs.

Also riding here is about 50,000 times easier logistically than bouncing around back east. Saratoga? Of course. What about the winter? Aqueduct ( inner ) don't think so for a kid from the Dominican. Keeneland? Sure. Will have build relationships. Gulfstream? Sure. Same story there.

California on the other hand is Valhalla for a guy that has his business. Fantastic weather year round. Live in the same house all but 7 weeks when somehow he has to endure a condo on a San Diego beach.

His morning work here is a total piece of cake. Breeze your stakes horses. Help out at Sadler's and a couple of marquee barns and kick around the backside politicing and visiting. Take some mornings off ( not an option at Belmont ) and ride nothing but 6/5 shots.

He and Bejarano are friends. More importantly their agents work together to freeze out other riders and keep the business in the top two family. VERY IMPORTANT! Also not possible back east.

I understand when you're young and super talented new adventures seem exciting. I say try river rafting, bungee jumping or of course musicals.

There's a certain little girl with Ruby slippers that said it best. And she was from Kansas for crying out loud. Not the paradise that So. Cal is.

Don't do it Joel.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Here's the thing. He's dominant in California. Something that is VERY VERY hard to accomplish. For some reason riders from back east with equal talent have tried it out here and failed. Never understood why but many have crawled home with their tail between their legs.

What are some examples of east coast guys who have gone west only to crawl home with their tails between their legs?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What are some examples of east coast guys who have gone west only to crawl home with their tails between their legs?

Jorge Chavez and Channing Hill are the only NY "regulars" to even try to make it out there in the last 5 years. What they had in common is that at that stage of their respective careers neither could really ride at all.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Jorge Chavez and Channing Hill are the only NY "regulars" to even try to make it out there in the last 5 years. What they had in common is that at that stage of their respective careers neither could really ride at all.

It's almost all fashion with jockeys.

You can pull a guy like Pablo Morales out of the jockey room here at PID and if you put him on the mounts of mostly all of the big-name jockeys, you'd see no difference in long-term production.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Jorge Chavez and Channing Hill are the only NY "regulars" to even try to make it out there in the last 5 years. What they had in common is that at that stage of their respective careers neither could really ride at all.

Channing Hill is BEYOND putrid. Never really followed NY when he was there, but he has been putrid here this meet. This was the first time I had a chance to watch him ride and I'm shocked he could even win races in NY.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What are some examples of east coast guys who have gone west only to crawl home with their tails between their legs?

Kerwin John couldn't win at 3% year after year when he was riding at Mountaineer and Thistle -- and he went out and contended for a riding title at Hollywood Park one meet and was riding in the Breeders Cup.

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What are some examples of east coast guys who have gone west only to crawl home with their tails between their legs?

Angel Cordero, Jorge Velazquez, Julien Leparoux, Jose Santos come to mind off the top of my head.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Angel Cordero, Jorge Velazquez, Julien Leparoux, Jose Santos come to mind off the top of my head.

Leparoux was out there for like a week and the rest happened decades ago, right?

Straight and strong!

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Not a move I would advise. He's 6th in the nation in earnings. That with having a very quiet last 30 days because of chasing the Triple Crown, sadly having to attend to his brother and suspensions.

Not sure what the desired goal would be. Top 5 in the nation in total earnings? Already there. Live Triple Crown mounts? Already there. Breeders' Cup Prospects? Already there. Has won two.

Here's the thing. He's dominant in California. Something that is VERY VERY hard to accomplish. For some reason riders from back east with equal talent have tried it out here and failed. Never understood why but many have crawled home with their tail between their legs.

Also riding here is about 50,000 times easier logistically than bouncing around back east. Saratoga? Of course. What about the winter? Aqueduct ( inner ) don't think so for a kid from the Dominican. Keeneland? Sure. Will have build relationships. Gulfstream? Sure. Same story there.

California on the other hand is Valhalla for a guy that has his business. Fantastic weather year round. Live in the same house all but 7 weeks when somehow he has to endure a condo on a San Diego beach.

His morning work here is a total piece of cake. Breeze your stakes horses. Help out at Sadler's and a couple of marquee barns and kick around the backside politicing and visiting. Take some mornings off ( not an option at Belmont ) and ride nothing but 6/5 shots.

He and Bejarano are friends. More importantly their agents work together to freeze out other riders and keep the business in the top two family. VERY IMPORTANT! Also not possible back east.

I understand when you're young and super talented new adventures seem exciting. I say try river rafting, bungee jumping or of course musicals.

There's a certain little girl with Ruby slippers that said it best. And she was from Kansas for crying out loud. Not the paradise that So. Cal is.

Don't do it Joel.

I really don't understand your plea/post. Wouldn't a good goal be, trying to be the best of your profession? OK, he has accomplished a lot in California and no one is taking anything away from him. Although dominant might be a bit over the top, especially when the feeling seems to be (or at least the one I get) is that Raffie is the go to money guy out there. But I agree he has done very well for himself out there. But possibly it's to the point where he feels like he's accomplished all he's going to accomplish out there and he's starting to spin his wheels. If he wants to be the best and get nationally recoginized then he's going to the right place.

I really don't understand what jocks going from east to west has to do with the situation. What's the worst thing that could happen? If he bombs in NY, he'll just go back west and his buisness will eventually go back to normal. It's not like it's that deep of a colony out there Vic.

Now I have no idea if of Rosario's personal life, but I wish I could spend the summer in Saratoga. As far as NY goes, Belmont and Aqueduct are what 10 miles from each other. Besides what about the times that he will be able to ride in muliple races at different tracks on the same day. Can't do that from California. Ok winters on the inner can be brutal, but Ramon deals with it. If Joel rides to his ability he should have no problem going to Florida and getting mounts for the winter if he doesn't want to brave the cold. So obviously I'm not buying the logistics deal either.

Not sure what you are saying about his mornings, but I almost feel like you are trying to knock a hole in his work ethic. As far as the agents colluding to freeze out other jocks, isn't that another knock? If he's so dominant, why do the agents need to do that. Shouldn't all the trainers be knocking down his door?

I just feel like for a guy who used to be his agent and friend who raved about his ability all the time, this is far from the strong vote of confidence that I would expect from you. Not even a good luck Joel, I just find the whole commentary very strange and disappointing. Makes me think that this is just a case of sour grapes.

[clambeau]

We don't have to understand Vic...we just have to hear him

[pointman]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I really don't understand your plea/post. Wouldn't a good goal be, trying to be the best of your profession? OK, he has accomplished a lot in California and no one is taking anything away from him. Although dominant might be a bit over the top, especially when the feeling seems to be (or at least the one I get) is that Raffie is the go to money guy out there. But I agree he has done very well for himself out there. But possibly it's to the point where he feels like he's accomplished all he's going to accomplish out there and he's starting to spin his wheels. If he wants to be the best and get nationally recoginized then he's going to the right place.

I really don't understand what jocks going from east to west has to do with the situation. What's the worst thing that could happen? If he bombs in NY, he'll just go back west and his buisness will eventually go back to normal. It's not like it's that deep of a colony out there Vic.

Now I have no idea if of Rosario's personal life, but I wish I could spend the summer in Saratoga. As far as NY goes, Belmont and Aqueduct are what 10 miles from each other. Besides what about the times that he will be able to ride in muliple races at different tracks on the same day. Can't do that from California. Ok winters on the inner can be brutal, but Ramon deals with it. If Joel rides to his ability he should have no problem going to Florida and getting mounts for the winter if he doesn't want to brave the cold. So obviously I'm not buying the logistics deal either.

Not sure what you are saying about his mornings, but I almost feel like you are trying to knock a hole in his work ethic. As far as the agents colluding to freeze out other jocks, isn't that another knock? If he's so dominant, why do the agents need to do that. Shouldn't all the trainers be knocking down his door?

I just feel like for a guy who used to be his agent and friend who raved about his ability all the time, this is far from the strong vote of confidence that I would expect from you. Not even a good luck Joel, I just find the whole commentary very strange and disappointing. Makes me think that this is just a case of sour grapes.

Having represented many jockeys over the years including Joel my post was an opinion about what I would advise and think would be in his best interests professionally. Period.

I totally understand wanting to conquer new challenges and have new life's experiences. I get that. Especially for a young man like Joel. Furthermore I 100% agree he can leave, come back, and be embraced and dominant immediately.

As far as East/West goes. There can only be three guys in the top three in each place. Duh! Joel is unquestionably 1 or 2 here in California. Based on the last 3 years I would say #1. Heady stuff and believe me being leading rider is VERY important to these guys.

To expect to be on top in NY at least for the immediate is unreasonable. Joel rode here for 2 years before breaking into the top five. So lot's of time and effort will have to be put in. No doubt in my mind he has the talent to do it. My question is why bother when he's already a kingpin here? He's a 20 something and I'm a set in my ways old fart of 53 so again I do understand.

As far as his work ethic. I view that as just the opposite. I'm not knocking him at all. When I had his book it was occasionally an issue. I felt it was the difference between him being 3rd to Gomez and Bejarano and being No. 1. It's something alot of young millionaires in many sports must have to focus on. He was getting a thousand times better towards the end of our working together and now with Ronnie he misses no mornings or afternoons. I truly believe Ronnie is better for Joel than I was. He's more of a friend while I felt some generational friction. I think I pestered and pushed a little more than he liked while Ronnie approaches motivation from a different angle and Joel has responded wonderfully.

I have no more sour grapes than any other human he felt was unjustly fired. However I've moved on. My relationship with Joel is friendly and respectful. I'm certainly happy when he does well. I root for him always and take some pride in knowing I was instumental in his success and ascent to becoming an elite rider.

Agents that have enough power and business to work together and freeze others out is tried and true good business. Be it horseracing or any other endeavour. I never did that with Joe Ferrer cuz I liked the competetion too much. Just wanted to beat him straight up. Rarely did. Talk about top flight agents. That guy is the Black Mamba.

[Alabama Stakes]

Rosario will be the leading rider at Saratoga. Y'all forget about the most important thing....hosses run for him. He's damn good.

[blackthroatedwind]

It's also pretty interesting that Vic conveniently left Richard Migliore's West Coast success out of his argument. I guess when you are knocking Hall of Famers that ventured West when the majority of board members weren't even born yet, it's easy to dismiss the efforts and successes of one of the true good guys in this industry, especially when it happened just a few years ago. Why applaud the truly deserving when you can unfairly besmirch the achievements of others.

It only seems like he's been around for a long time.

I don't care either way how he does. I do, however, realize that the colony where he had cherry-picked mounts has been on the decline for over a decade.

We'll see how he does with less live horses. I'm not the only one who thinks he's slightly overrated. The switch to dirt will be telling statistically.

[blackthroatedwind]

I love when Vic copies the same post on multiple message boards. It makes me, the reader, feel special.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I love when Vic copies the same post on multiple message boards. It makes me, the reader, feel special.

There have to be a few more where threads haven't started that he's just waiting to hit the paste button.

I'm a little puzzled by the last sentence. Is that supposed to be a play on Rosario's accent?