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#1
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#2
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Regarding the weight loss. No, it usually is not upwards of 30 pounds, and please, don't hesitate to quote the specific two studies that examined this very question: does weight loss contribute to increased performance with lasix? Because I guarantee you probably won't like the results. No, lasix does NOT change the acid-base balance of the blood. Anybody who knows how this loop diuretic works knows that. If that were true, every horse given lasix would have a TCO2 positive. Stick to being opinionated about racing, Rollo, but as an expert on lasix you're passing on half-baked information that has already, repeatedly, been "debunked". I'm not talking about you specifically here, Rollo, but I'm tired of the outright medical lies being promulgated over the years by proponents of banning lasix. These lies and their position regarding what lasix does to the horse are at 100% odds with the veterinary and scientific community regarding what lasix does, and it sure as hell is not because they are better educated in veterinary medicine and science. They are ignorant old men, too foolish and set in their ways to leave their "knowledge" from the 1970's behind them. They are a danger to the health and welfare of the race horse.
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"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts |
#3
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Because of the large study population and resulting statistical power,...we believe our results present clear and unequivocal evidence of an association between use of furosemide and superior performance in Thoroughbred racehorses. Possible explanations for the association between use of furosemide and superior performance include reduction in severity of EIPH, reduction in body weight, induction of metabolic alkalosis, bronchiodilation, and other mechanisms. Quote:
Same study: Another explanation for a performance-enhancing of furosemide is the acute reduction in body weight that occurs after furosemide administration. Intravenous administration of furosemide has been shown to induce a 2% to 4% in body weight within 4 hours. (4 citations noted) Quote:
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#4
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![]() Honestly Rollo, how can you take the position that Lasix is a performance enhancer and that it is ok to train on it? If you believe it is a peformance enhancer, then what scientific evidence exists that shots a couple of times a week to train won't enhance peformance in a race?
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#5
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Didn't someone try and call it a "performance enabler" as an alternative? Good stuff. The real issue is whether or not its justifiable to allow racehorses predisposed to severe bleeding to benefit competively by the administration of lasix. Why is simple barring/retirement from racing off the table? Probably because we have extremists clouding the issue by noting that you can find minute evidence of bleeding in over 90% of racehorses, attempting to equate insignificant (from a performance standpoint) levels of bleeding with the more severe ones. In one dubious swoop, you go from having a problem affecting ~2-5% of the population to one that affects nearly 100%. |
#6
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So, instead of getting rid of the small percentage of the horse population that have severe EIPH, it was easier apparently to just give every horse the drug, including those with tiny amounts of bleeding that doesn't change performance. As far as that goes, if there is one thing of which I am certain, it is that none of these studies can actually measure performance. You can only do that in actual races. |
#7
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![]() Just cutting and pasting words.
You have every right to have a position on drugs in racing. Stand up and say you don't want any drugs whatsoever on race day. Nothing wrong with that. However, you should probably come up with a reason why you oppose the direct and specific medical advice of the veterinary profession, who says that doing what you want is not best for the health and welfare of the horse. We say these lay person interpretations (such as published by some of the anti-lasix folks) of the scientific information surrounding lasix use is wrong and off base. We advise the very opposite of what some lay people in racing are proposing. Why are 60,000 medical professionals wrong, but lay people with no scientific education, correct? The concepts being parroted about lasix by the anti-lasix crowd is like calling "creation science" science. It's sad, like watching Jenny McCarthy continue to contend that autuism is caused by vaccination, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Quote:
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![]() Grandma takes horse lasix, at the same dose as race horses, for her congestive failure. That's how terrible this very predictable, very low incidence of side effects loop diuretic is ![]()
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"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts |
#8
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![]() Interesting. You asked me to directly quote the study that states that lasix is associated with superior performance. I did. Now you say I'm "just cutting and pasting".
Cute. But anyone with a pulse sees right through it. Refute Dr. Hinchcliff's (you know, the guy who proved lasix was effective under actual race conditions) conclusions. Quote:
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But enough of that duck-and-dive tactic you're so good at. You're cherry-picking my last post. Why don't you comment on the mechanism of action of furosemide and how, according to your claim, it does not affect acid-base balance in a racing Thoroughbred? The lay people want to know. Quote:
Ironically, some states, such as New York have two thresholds for total CO2. 37 mmol/L and 39 mmol/L. Anyone know which horses are held to the higher (that's the 39 level for the non-mathematicians here) threshold? Yep, you guessed it. It's for horses that were administered lasix. Interesting that the rules of racing seem to suggest that lasix alters the acid-base status (specifically, has an alkalinizing effect) of a horse. No? Quote:
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Dr. Warwick Bayly: "...this review emphasizes issues that relate to the highly controversial subject of furosemide use in racehorses." (2000) Do we need those pesky lay people to voice their concern, too? Or are we good here? |
#9
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![]() "However, you should probably come up with a reason why you oppose the direct and specific medical advice of the veterinary profession, who says that doing what you want is not best for the health and welfare of the horse. "
This part is easy. Given the current state of the game, why in the world should we trust vets? Many are associated with the "move up" trainers that are ruining the game. |
#10
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![]() For example, you say this: Quote:
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![]() Cutting and pasting random quotes, while completely ignoring the basic physiology and misunderstanding what you are reading, is hilarious and sad. Start with chloride and the ascending loop of Henle. You see, you actually have to understand what you are going on about. Just googling and posting doesn't make you a lasix expert. Believe me - I am a lasix expert, and you've repeatedly demonstrated you are clueless. Please - stick to gambling. Leave medicine and veterinary advice to the experts. You are free to hold the completely opposite opinion than the entire medical veterinary medical community on this subject, but having you argue basic physiology and pharmacology from a level of zero obvious knowledge - by cutting and pasting - is simply uncomfortable to watch. But ... you are just repeating what some in this sport are doing, falsifying and ignoring all the relevant information, in an effort to further their own preconceived agenda. But when they step into our realm, the medical realm, and really start with the lies, we're calling bull.sh.i.at. on that stuff. The funny thing is that on the equine veterinarian private blogs, we are talking about this, too. Very different discussion, as you might guess.
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"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts Last edited by Riot : 05-12-2012 at 07:19 PM. |
#11
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You're the guy at the corner bar, nursing a beer and pontificating on how to do open heart surgery. Quote:
Go google and find some words by someone who knows what they are talking about, that says alveolar bleeding, the rupture of the capillary-oxygenation interface - which means it doesn't work, big guy - is "insignificant from a performance standpoint". How about the words "oxygen dissociation curve" "VO2max" "Arterial O2 saturation". Ring a bell, doc?
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"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts |
#12
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln |
#13
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![]() I ask again, what it the harm in waiting? Nobody seems to want to answer that question. The real reason nobody wants to wait until a horse actually bleeds to get Lasix is everyone knows it puts them at a competitive disadvantage. It really is that simple.
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#14
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The answer is: 93% of horses experience EIPH when racing. Furosemide decreases that number. That is why the veterinary and scientific world overwhelmingly and without reservation advises furosemides' continued use as a therapeutic race day drug.
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"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts |
#15
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#16
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if there is potential harm if you don't use it, and no harm if you use it, why wait? and 'everybody knows'? makes you wonder why then that some choose not to use it. or maybe that's because everyone doesn't know that. perhaps they paid attention to all the studies linked in the last week or so that said there is no advantage. but then, even tho there is proof there can be permanent lung damage from a severe enough bleeding episode, you're still insisting otherwise.
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln |
#17
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