Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

So anything you or your ex-employee say isn't relevant either? I know you aren't a horse, and I don't think Riot is either.

Seriously though Chuck, if racing were trying to be legalized today and one of the stipulations was that virtually every horse had to receive a drug injection before racing, what are the chances it would, in fact, be legalized?

Gary Stevens is using his own personal medical history as the basis of his argument. That if he has taken time off instead of injecting his knees that he would still be riding. Of course his memory seems to be a bit short as to why he came back (financial issues relating to having too many kids) and that "rest" wasnt really an option. I would also add that jockeys rarely have much idea as to what goes on with individual horses outside of the 15 minutes that they spend on their back but Stevens does have that 3 month training career to fall back on.

As for your speculation I doubt that that issue would be relevant in the legalization as it is still is not required treatment. I undertsand what you are saying but this is being made into a far bigger item than it deserves and because this has become a political correctness battle it is impossible for those in favor of lasix use to win. The real question is what will the fallout be? May not work out so good in the long run.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

As for your speculation I doubt that that issue would be relevant in the legalization as it is still is not required treatment. I undertsand what you are saying but this is being made into a far bigger item than it deserves and because this has become a political correctness battle it is impossible for those in favor of lasix use to win. The real question is what will the fallout be? May not work out so good in the long run.

It sure seems required looking at the entries every day at every track. That is my point, and you guys avoid that. Either 99% of horses need it, or they don't. We aren't talking cheap claimers here. Check out my BC Classic list. Our best horses ALL get Lasix. I find it hard to believe they all need it.

The fallout will probably be hard on the game short term, but long term, I don't think it is nearly as grave as some seem to think.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We aren't talking cheap claimers here. Check out my BC Classic list. Our best horses ALL get Lasix. I find it hard to believe they all need it.

So what? What difference does it make really? Virtually every horse gets a shot of bute 24 hours out as well and has for 40 years.

There is a certain English trainer that came to the US after a very successful career in Europe. I was helping a vet in FL out one Winter shortly after that trainer came here full time and the vet was tasked with treating this trainers horse which had shipped in for a stake. The instructions were amazing not only in the amount of shots given but the timing which was all listed as well. The vet who did not treat this trainers horses regularly did not follow the detailed instructions and gave all the shots at once when the first shot was supposed to be given. The instructions were 3 days long and shots were to be given 3 or 4 different times a day leading up to raceday. The point being that this trainer was a freaking expert on drugs (all legal meds but given in a far different manner than the Vet or I had ever seen or heard of). It is almost implausible that he hadnt been treating horses in a similar fashion for quite some time in Europe where every thing is supposedly wonderful.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So what? What difference does it make really? Virtually every horse gets a shot of bute 24 hours out as well and has for 40 years.

So what? It should be painfully obvious by now. It is all about perception. Drugging every horse before they race is never going to be perceived very well, and I personally don't think it should be. Every horse shouldn't get Bute either. They don't all need it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

So what? It should be painfully obvious by now. It is all about perception. Drugging every horse before they race is never going to be perceived very well, and I personally don't think it should be. Every horse shouldn't get Bute either. They don't all need it.

Perception? Who brought this entire debate into the publics eye because it sure hasn't been much of a topic for a long time? This is a issue that was created by those within the game who have their own agenda which is largely misguided. If giving a horse a shot of lasix is "drugging" them then pretty much all of us (with the notable exception of Indian Charlie) are drugging ourselves every day as well.

The perception of this sport has very little to do with lasix.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Perception? Who brought this entire debate into the publics eye because it sure hasn't been much of a topic for a long time? This is a issue that was created by those within the game who have their own agenda which is largely misguided. If giving a horse a shot of lasix is "drugging" them then pretty much all of us (with the notable exception of Indian Charlie) are drugging ourselves every day as well.

The perception of this sport has very little to do with lasix.

We are? All of us are getting injections? I have a herniated disc, so I have had a few this year, but not so I could compete. I would say a very small percentage are getting injections, and of that, how many are doing it to compete in sports?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We are? All of us are getting injections? I have a herniated disc, so I have had a few this year, but not so I could compete. I would say a very small percentage are getting injections, and of that, how many are doing it to compete in sports?

So all those diabetics that give themselves shots are druggies because they use a needle to treat their disease? Lasix comes in many forms including pills, would it make you feel better if we gave them pills? What difference does it make what delivery system you are using? We give electrolytes and fluids to horses using catheters and no one is against them.

Refusing to acknowledge that lasix is a preventative measure clouds your entire argument.

[Cannon Shell]

The evidence that the general public gives a damn about anything we do in this sport is flimsy. For those which are ardent followers of the sport I can think of many better ways to address the perception issue than elimnating raceday lasix (in other words for the majority of people, taking the L in the program away). This sport has a lot of huge issues staring it in the face and lasix usage or lack there of is hardly going to solve any of them.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

So what? It should be painfully obvious by now. It is all about perception. Drugging every horse before they race is never going to be perceived very well, and I personally don't think it should be. Every horse shouldn't get Bute either. They don't all need it.

The solution to bad "perception" is not to choose to undermine the health care of the horse in favor of supporting and giving in to public ignorance about drugs.

The solution is educating the ignorance away.

That's proven to be really difficult in some.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

The solution to bad "perception" is not to choose to undermine the health care of the horse in favor of supporting and giving in to public ignorance about drugs.

The solution is educating the ignorance away.

That's proven to be really difficult in some.

I don't think most people really care that much about the health of horses. Out of sight, out of mind.

Oh they claim they do because who would admit the not caring but this entire debate is not about the health of horses. Most people just havent come to that realization yet.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I don't think most people really care that much about the health of horses. Out of sight, out of mind.

Oh they claim they do because who would admit the not caring but this entire debate is not about the health of horses. Most people just havent come to that realization yet.

Faithful pawns are useful for maintaining power. Burn a straw man, it's as good as solving a real problem to those pawns that like fire, rather than substance.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It sure seems required looking at the entries every day at every track. That is my point, and you guys avoid that. Either 99% of horses need it, or they don't.

Excuse me. Nonsense. I have pointed out repeatedly to you on this thread that research shows that an average of 93% of race horses have evidence of microscopic bleeding in their lungs. Stop blinding ignoring that and saying differently.

We aren't talking cheap claimers here. Check out my BC Classic list. Our best horses ALL get Lasix. I find it hard to believe they all need it.

The veterinary world has shown we have definitive proof, over the years, that 93% of horses bleed, and the "veterinary world" strongly advises lasix's continued use as a therapeutic medication on race day due to proven medical benefits of the drug in attenuating the severity and incidence of EIPH. Stop ignoring that essential truth.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Excuse me. Nonsense. I have pointed out repeatedly to you on this thread that research shows that an average of 93% of race horses have evidence of microscopic bleeding in their lungs. Stop blinding ignoring that and saying differently.

93 is not 99, and microscopic bleeding does not necessarily need to be treated with drugs...but you know that already. Why do those that don't need it get the drug?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

93 is not 99, and microscopic bleeding does not necessarily need to be treated with drugs...but you know that already.

No. Lasix has been definitively proven to attenuate the extent and severity of exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage. Which is why the medical world advises it's use as a race day therapeutic medication, for the health and welfare of the horse.

Insistence upon holding opinion left over from the 1950's, and pretending it's fact, in the face of 2012 medical evidence to the contrary, is really beyond comprehension. It's helping to ruin American racing today.