Speaking of things that will proably eventually kill you...

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Ornish's study has been thoroughly debunked.

There have obviously been a lot of studies that contradict each other. I don't doubt that you have seen evidence that you think debunks Ornish's work. But I think there have been a ton of studies that confirm his work. I have never heard that his worked was debunked. I don't think mainstream medicine considers his work debunked (not that mainstream medicine is always right). Ornish is world renowned.

Let's take a guy like Bob Baffert. He eats practically nothing but red meat. He had a heart attack. After he had the stents put in, the first thing the doctor told him was to cut way down on his red meat intake. He told him not to eat red meat more than twice a month.

As you said, there are other factors. It depends whether the red meat is grass-fed or not. But overall I think that most doctors would agree that for someone in Baffert's situation, they should undoubtedly cut down on meat and fried foods and eat more fruits and vegetables.

I don't think you can go wrong eating a lot of fruits and vegetables along with a little bit of fish (and occasionally some chicken or fish).

Look at Bill Clinton. He had a terrible diet and he had to keep having heart procedures. He finally became a 95% vegan (he eats fish twice a week). He is doing great now. Do you think he is making a mistake being on this new diet? I don't. I think this new diet will save his life.

By the way, Ornish is one of Clinton's doctors.

[Clinton says he was inspired to follow a low-fat, plant-based diet by several doctors, including Dean Ornish, author of Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease. Ornish has been working with Clinton as one of his consulting physicians since 1993."

After Clinton's angioplasty and stents in 2010, Ornish says he contacted the former president "and I indicated that the moderate diet and lifestyle changes he'd made didn't go far enough to prevent his heart disease from progressing, but our research proved that more intensive changes could actually reverse it," he says.]

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/fitness...ory/50111212/1

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

There have obviously been a lot of studies that contradict each other. I don't doubt that you have seen evidence that you think debunks Ornish's work. But I think there have been a ton of studies that confirm his work. I have never heard that his worked was debunked. I don't think mainstream medicine considers his work debunked (not that mainstream medicine is always right). Ornish is world renowned.

Let's take a guy like Bob Baffert. He eats practically nothing but red meat. He had a heart attack. After he had the stents put in, the first thing the doctor told him was to cut way down on his red meat intake. He told him not to eat red meat more than twice a month.

As you said, there are other factors. It depends whether the red meat is grass-fed or not. But overall I think that most doctors would agree that for someone in Baffert's situation, they should undoubtedly cut down on meat and fried foods and eat more fruits and vegetables.

I don't think you can go wrong eating a lot of fruits and vegetables along with a little bit of fish (and occasionally some chicken or fish).

Look at Bill Clinton. He had a terrible diet and he had to keep having heart procedures. He finally became a 95% vegan (he eats fish twice a week). He is doing great now. Do you think he is making a mistake being on this new diet? I don't. I think this new diet will save his life.

By the way, Ornish is one of Clinton's doctors.

[Clinton says he was inspired to follow a low-fat, plant-based diet by several doctors, including Dean Ornish, author of Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease. Ornish has been working with Clinton as one of his consulting physicians since 1993."

After Clinton's angioplasty and stents in 2010, Ornish says he contacted the former president "and I indicated that the moderate diet and lifestyle changes he'd made didn't go far enough to prevent his heart disease from progressing, but our research proved that more intensive changes could actually reverse it," he says.]

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/fitness...ory/50111212/1

Commercially raised meats are garbage. Thus, any study comparing the health effects of meats to a vegetable based diet, if based on very typical meats, is meaningless.

Properly raised meats are, in fact, a health food. Feed lot meat is worse than eating garbage.

Doctors are almost always wrong when it comes to dietary issues, as their training in medical school 1. includes next to nothing about nutrition and 2. what little they are given comes from biased sources, mainly from bogus studies.

One thing most people fail to consider about vegetarianism, or a mostly plant based diet.

There are crucial fat soluble vitamins that are next to impossible to get from plants. Vitamin D (I know, not really a vitamin), PREFORMED vitamin A (carotenes are not efficiently converted to vitamin A), and K (unless you like grazing on fresh grasses).

These nutrients are badly lacking in the American diet and the best source for them is grass fed meats and dairy. I am talking about food sources, as obviously you can make your own vitamin D.

Also, some of the B vitamins are difficult to obtain from plants.

I LOVE that people who eat primarily veggies often end up taking nutritional yeast to get B12. What most people don't realize is that B12 is added to yeast.

Yet another thing to consider...

Almost all plants are grown in soils that have become badly depleted in important minerals. You might think by choosing organic veggies that you are getting sufficient minerals, but the sad truth is, even organic veggies are badly under mineralized.

So, you need to eat A LOT of them to get anywhere near the minerals you need. The flip side of this is that most plants produce some sort of chemical defenses, than in small amounts are very beneficial to our health, but in larger amounts are toxic.

Then again, most plants that we eat have been selectively bred for a long time to minimize these substances. Notice how few people enjoy eating bitter plants anymore?

Me? I love ocean veggies, like kelp, dulse, etc. Absolutely loaded with minerals, and no toxic issues. I also like to collect wild plants and mushrooms, but that is not really feasible for most people.

I know I mentioned this book in a previous post, but I really think you would find this book interesting. At least look at it's product page on Amazon, read what it is about, and maybe read some of the user reviews. It's well written and loaded with lot's of really interesting information, and many delicious and easy recipes.

http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Tra...5712024&sr=8-1

Like any topic that tends to draw the zealot like types, one needs to keep an open perspective about these things. If you see any reviews that might be over the top (not saying that there are any for sure), take them with a grain of salt.

It's a wonderful book that could potentially let you see things in a different light.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Commercially raised meats are garbage. Thus, any study comparing the health effects of meats to a vegetable based diet, if based on very typical meats, is meaningless.

Properly raised meats are, in fact, a health food. Feed lot meat is worse than eating garbage.

Doctors are almost always wrong when it comes to dietary issues, as their training in medical school 1. includes next to nothing about nutrition and 2. what little they are given comes from biased sources, mainly from bogus studies.

One thing most people fail to consider about vegetarianism, or a mostly plant based diet.

There are crucial fat soluble vitamins that are next to impossible to get from plants. Vitamin D (I know, not really a vitamin), PREFORMED vitamin A (carotenes are not efficiently converted to vitamin A), and K (unless you like grazing on fresh grasses).

These nutrients are badly lacking in the American diet and the best source for them is grass fed meats and dairy. I am talking about food sources, as obviously you can make your own vitamin D.

Also, some of the B vitamins are difficult to obtain from plants.

I LOVE that people who eat primarily veggies often end up taking nutritional yeast to get B12. What most people don't realize is that B12 is added to yeast.

Yet another thing to consider...

Almost all plants are grown in soils that have become badly depleted in important minerals. You might think by choosing organic veggies that you are getting sufficient minerals, but the sad truth is, even organic veggies are badly under mineralized.

So, you need to eat A LOT of them to get anywhere near the minerals you need. The flip side of this is that most plants produce some sort of chemical defenses, than in small amounts are very beneficial to our health, but in larger amounts are toxic.

Then again, most plants that we eat have been selectively bred for a long time to minimize these substances. Notice how few people enjoy eating bitter plants anymore?

Me? I love ocean veggies, like kelp, dulse, etc. Absolutely loaded with minerals, and no toxic issues. I also like to collect wild plants and mushrooms, but that is not really feasible for most people.

I know I mentioned this book in a previous post, but I really think you would find this book interesting. At least look at it's product page on Amazon, read what it is about, and maybe read some of the user reviews. It's well written and loaded with lot's of really interesting information, and many delicious and easy recipes.

http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Tra...5712024&sr=8-1

Like any topic that tends to draw the zealot like types, one needs to keep an open perspective about these things. If you see any reviews that might be over the top (not saying that there are any for sure), take them with a grain of salt.

It's a wonderful book that could potentially let you see things in a different light.

It is important that they do most of the studies using commercially raised meats because that is what 99.9999% of Americans eat. However, I would like to see some studies done using grass-fed meat too. The results would probably be quite different.

I am on Dr. Al Sears' e-mail list and I get an e-mail from him every day. I don't agree with him on everything but I agree with most things that he says. He has a similar philosophy to you. He believes that meat is healthy as long as it is grass-fed. He says the same thing as you about today's vegetables. He says they only contain maybe 10% of the vitamins that vegetables from 70 years ago had.

As you said, if a person is a 100% vegan they need to take vitamin B supplements That tells me that we're not meant to be 100% vegans. We should at least eat a little bit of fish.

I will read the link you provided.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It is important that they do most of the studies using commercially raised meats because that is what 99.9999% of Americans eat. However, I would like to see some studies done using grass-fed meat too. The results would probably be quite different.

I am on Dr. Al Sears' e-mail list and I get an e-mail from him every day. I don't agree with him on everything but I agree with most things that he says. He has a similar philosophy to you. He believes that meat is healthy as long as it is grass-fed. He says the same thing as you about today's vegetables. He says they only contain maybe 10% of the vitamins that vegetables from 70 years ago had.

As you said, if a person is a 100% vegan they need to take vitamin B supplements That tells me that we're not meant to be 100% vegans. We should at least eat a little bit of fish.

I will read the link you provided.

Studies are usually influenced by the biases of the people conducting them. Don't get too caught up with them.

We should eat a lot of fish. The minerals from the ocean and the fats from certain types of seafood make it supremely valuable.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Commercially raised meats are garbage. Thus, any study comparing the health effects of meats to a vegetable based diet, if based on very typical meats, is meaningless.

Properly raised meats are, in fact, a health food. Feed lot meat is worse than eating garbage.

Doctors are almost always wrong when it comes to dietary issues, as their training in medical school 1. includes next to nothing about nutrition and 2. what little they are given comes from biased sources, mainly from bogus studies.

One thing most people fail to consider about vegetarianism, or a mostly plant based diet.

There are crucial fat soluble vitamins that are next to impossible to get from plants. Vitamin D (I know, not really a vitamin), PREFORMED vitamin A (carotenes are not efficiently converted to vitamin A), and K (unless you like grazing on fresh grasses).

These nutrients are badly lacking in the American diet and the best source for them is grass fed meats and dairy. I am talking about food sources, as obviously you can make your own vitamin D.

Also, some of the B vitamins are difficult to obtain from plants.

I LOVE that people who eat primarily veggies often end up taking nutritional yeast to get B12. What most people don't realize is that B12 is added to yeast.

Yet another thing to consider...

Almost all plants are grown in soils that have become badly depleted in important minerals. You might think by choosing organic veggies that you are getting sufficient minerals, but the sad truth is, even organic veggies are badly under mineralized.

So, you need to eat A LOT of them to get anywhere near the minerals you need. The flip side of this is that most plants produce some sort of chemical defenses, than in small amounts are very beneficial to our health, but in larger amounts are toxic.

Then again, most plants that we eat have been selectively bred for a long time to minimize these substances. Notice how few people enjoy eating bitter plants anymore?

Me? I love ocean veggies, like kelp, dulse, etc. Absolutely loaded with minerals, and no toxic issues. I also like to collect wild plants and mushrooms, but that is not really feasible for most people.

I know I mentioned this book in a previous post, but I really think you would find this book interesting. At least look at it's product page on Amazon, read what it is about, and maybe read some of the user reviews. It's well written and loaded with lot's of really interesting information, and many delicious and easy recipes.

http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Tra...5712024&sr=8-1

Like any topic that tends to draw the zealot like types, one needs to keep an open perspective about these things. If you see any reviews that might be over the top (not saying that there are any for sure), take them with a grain of salt.

It's a wonderful book that could potentially let you see things in a different light.

Thanks for the link. I read about 20 pages. I agree with most of the things they are saying. The guy (Dr. Al Sears) that I get a lot of my information from says most of the same things that it says in that book.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Thanks for the link. I read about 20 pages. I agree with most of the things they are saying. The guy (Dr. Al Sears) that I get a lot of my information from says most of the same things that it says in that book.

I suggest you buy the book. While there are similarities between Sears and the NT book, there are going to be some sharp differences.

The stuff you weren't agreeing with?? Could you be disagreeing because it runs counter to the information you learned from Dr. Sears, or someone like him?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I suggest you buy the book. While there are similarities between Sears and the NT book, there are going to be some sharp differences.

The stuff you weren't agreeing with?? Could you be disagreeing because it runs counter to the information you learned from Dr. Sears, or someone like him?

I have no doubt that grass-fed beef is much healthier than regular beef. But I'm still not convinced that you can eat as much of it as you like.

Another huge study just came out showing how bad read meat is for you. Maybe grass-fed beef really is not bad at all. But I would need to see some hard evidence before I would take that leap of faith and recommend that people make red meat (of any type) a big part of their diet.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...-meat-20120313

The head researcher was asked about grass-fed meat:

How about grass-fed beef? Does the way the animals are raised make a difference?

"We don't know for sure. In this study we were investigating red meat as it is consumed in the United States, which is mostly lot-fed, grain-fed beef. I'm quite sure we would not have enough people consuming mostly grass-fed beef to be able to look at that on its own.

There are some differences. Omega-3 fatty acid levels are somewhat higher in the grass-fed beef. But if someone's getting other sources of omega-3 fatty acids — if they're having fish once or twice a week — the additional amount probably won't make too much difference.

The total fat may be a bit lower. But we don't see that the fat per se is really related to the risk of getting heart disease or cancer. Cholesterol is more in the lean part of the red meat, so that's going to be just as high and maybe even higher in the grass-fed animals.

I think it would be nice to be able to study grass-fed beef directly, but I think in the meantime it's reasonable to assume that the answer is probably not going to be very different from what we saw here."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...llett-20120324

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have no doubt that grass-fed beef is much healthier than regular beef. But I'm still not convinced that you can eat as much of it as you like.

Another huge study just came out showing how bad read meat is for you. Maybe grass-fed beef really is not bad at all. But I would need to see some hard evidence before I would take that leap of faith and recommend that people make red meat (of any type) a big part of their diet.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...-meat-20120313

The head researcher was asked about grass-fed meat:

How about grass-fed beef? Does the way the animals are raised make a difference?

"We don't know for sure. In this study we were investigating red meat as it is consumed in the United States, which is mostly lot-fed, grain-fed beef. I'm quite sure we would not have enough people consuming mostly grass-fed beef to be able to look at that on its own.

There are some differences. Omega-3 fatty acid levels are somewhat higher in the grass-fed beef. But if someone's getting other sources of omega-3 fatty acids — if they're having fish once or twice a week — the additional amount probably won't make too much difference.

The total fat may be a bit lower. But we don't see that the fat per se is really related to the risk of getting heart disease or cancer. Cholesterol is more in the lean part of the red meat, so that's going to be just as high and maybe even higher in the grass-fed animals.

I think it would be nice to be able to study grass-fed beef directly, but I think in the meantime it's reasonable to assume that the answer is probably not going to be very different from what we saw here."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...llett-20120324

There are plenty of real world studies and experiences with grass fed meats that prove they are healthy. They just are not put into the mainstream focus because of what it would do to certain industries.

Cholesterol is a vitally important substance in our bodies, and if your body needs high cholesterol, it makes it, regardless if you eliminate it from your diet. Cholesterol as boogeyman will not last that much longer.

The reason cholesterol collects in arteries of people with 'heart disease' is because it's doing it's job, which is repairing diseased or damaged tissue.

Blaming cholesterol for heart disease is just like blaming skid marks at an accident scene for the accident. IE, cholesterol is there as a RESULT of heart disease.

Cholesterol drugs are both highly toxic and extremely lucrative, which is again why you won't see this in any mainstream source. If you want more information, LMK and I'll send you all sorts of links.

All of this, and a lot more, are discussed in that book (as well as in her foundations other literature/website). Things like this are what you will not see in Dr. Sears book.

I'll make you a deal. Buy that book from Amazon. If you read it and think it's full of crap, or you don't feel like you are going to get anything out of it, I'll buy it from you, provided you are willing to ship it to me and you haven't damaged it.

Give it a fair shake, maybe try a thing or three in it, and if you want to go wild, maybe learn the experiences of others who have adopted some of the changes espoused in the book. Heck, just read through some of the Amazon user reviews.

I personally know quite a few people who have tried it and have changed their health for the better, reversing multiple health conditions and getting an overall much better sense of well being.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

There are plenty of real world studies and experiences with grass fed meats that prove they are healthy. They just are not put into the mainstream focus because of what it would do to certain industries.

Cholesterol is a vitally important substance in our bodies, and if your body needs high cholesterol, it makes it, regardless if you eliminate it from your diet. Cholesterol as boogeyman will not last that much longer.

The reason cholesterol collects in arteries of people with 'heart disease' is because it's doing it's job, which is repairing diseased or damaged tissue.

Blaming cholesterol for heart disease is just like blaming skid marks at an accident scene for the accident. IE, cholesterol is there as a RESULT of heart disease.

Cholesterol drugs are both highly toxic and extremely lucrative, which is again why you won't see this in any mainstream source. If you want more information, LMK and I'll send you all sorts of links.

All of this, and a lot more, are discussed in that book (as well as in her foundations other literature/website). Things like this are what you will not see in Dr. Sears book.

I'll make you a deal. Buy that book from Amazon. If you read it and think it's full of crap, or you don't feel like you are going to get anything out of it, I'll buy it from you, provided you are willing to ship it to me and you haven't damaged it.

Give it a fair shake, maybe try a thing or three in it, and if you want to go wild, maybe learn the experiences of others who have adopted some of the changes espoused in the book. Heck, just read through some of the Amazon user reviews.

I personally know quite a few people who have tried it and have changed their health for the better, reversing multiple health conditions and getting an overall much better sense of well being.

I think you are thinking of a different Dr. Sears. The famous one is Barry Sears. That is not who I am talking about. I am talking about Al Sears, who is a huge meat-eater (grass-fed).