Two Punch euthanized at 28

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Falstaff had about 5 foals total before Apollo came along. Apollo's bottom side is nothing but sprinters and Falstaff's own dam, Ivorina, produced sprinter Ivory Mint, who in turn produced sprinter Malibu Mint.

I wouldn't say nothing but sprinters in Apollo's bottom side, though it certainly leans that way. Then again, most of those are sired by speed/sprint sires.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

How exactly? The colt broke its maiden in July, bucked shins, came back and won two 6f sprints by open lengths, then barely held on in a 7f Cal-bred stakes before his first defeat in the San Rafael at 8f. Then he got beat open lengths at 9f in the Jim Beam. Sounds like a sensible campaign heading towards the Derby. However, predictably (by Gary Jones no less), distance limitations set in.

Do you remember Apollo's debut? He had blistering works, including, if I recall correctly from 20 years ago, a 6f work around 110 flat, in the early to mid summer of his 2yo year. In his debut, he looks like he's going to win by 10, then pulls a Sunday Silence in the stretch, holds on to win in like 111 and change, and is laid up. After he came back, I think it was in the San Miguel several months later, a race he crushed them in, Jones was interviewed about Apollo. He said the reason he ran so erratically in the stretch is because even though he already had bucked shins, he really wanted to get a race into him.

I already thought he was a butcher, but wow man. It was only a matter of time before he unraveled Apollo.

Looking back on horses that debuted with Jones, you really will have a hard time finding promising horses that lasted. Turkoman? I think Reigning Countess maybe? For every Turkoman, there were many more Timebanks.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

He got away with a :23+ opening quarter that day and was able to hold off a comebacking Best Pal but not a streaking Dinard. Best Pal was a bit pea-hearted all spring anyways, ironically coming to hand in the summer and fall after being transfered to...you guess it...Gary Jones.

Thanks. As I said above, horses that he inherited typically fared much better than ones he started out with.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Not sure why this runner-up effort is the stuff of legend. It was a big try from an overachieving Cal-bred of modest origin. Nothing more than that. Came back down to the level hinted at by the Cal Breeder's Stakes soon afterwards.


Apollo made 23 lifetime starts. Its not like he disappeared after he got exposed at Turfway.

He never was the same after the Turfway race.

Apollo was FAST and should have had a much better career.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Do you remember Apollo's debut? He had blistering works, including, if I recall correctly from 20 years ago, a 6f work around 110 flat, in the early to mid summer of his 2yo year. In his debut, he looks like he's going to win by 10, then pulls a Sunday Silence in the stretch, holds on to win in like 111 and change, and is laid up. After he came back, I think it was in the San Miguel several months later, a race he crushed them in, Jones was interviewed about Apollo. He said the reason he ran so erratically in the stretch is because even though he already had bucked shins, he really wanted to get a race into him.

I already thought he was a butcher, but wow man. It was only a matter of time before he unraveled Apollo.

The San Miguel was his 3rd race of his 2yo year. Essentially, all horses buck their shins to one degree or another. Certainly not a shocking turn of events for a fast working, early 2yo type and certainly not a malady isolated to the Gary Jones barn.

Obviously, he didn't do a very thorough job of ruining the colt. He ran until he was 6 years old and placed in multiple stakes (sprints of course) at age 5.

Looking back on horses that debuted with Jones, you really will have a hard time finding promising horses that lasted. Turkoman? I think Reigning Countess maybe? For every Turkoman, there were many more Timebanks.

Again, who were these promising horses you speak of? Timebank was another breakneck speedball that no one would have kept going. Other than the odd Saron Stable or Allen Paulson horse, I'm not sure he had a steady supply of young horses to trash in the first place.

If Jones had a major fault compared to anyone else in CA it was that he loved to ship his good horses all over the place. He probably knocked more out criss-crossing the country back and forth than he did sending to early retirements.

He never was the same after the Turfway race.

Actually, as soon as he was back sprinting all he did was tie the world's record for 5.5f on the turf at Hollywood Park. Of course, once he had to start facing real sprinters he was further exposed from a class standpoint.

Apollo was FAST and should have had a much better career.

Again, blame the owners. Gary Jones never thought the horse was a Derby candidate. He was forced to run him in the San Rafael instead of $100 grander at Golden Gate. Ironically, its the performance you seem to champion most in the horse's career, yet fail to see it as the most likely point where he busted his gut.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The San Miguel was his 3rd race of his 2yo year. Essentially, all horses buck their shins to one degree or another. Certainly not a shocking turn of events for a fast working, early 2yo type and certainly not a malady isolated to the Gary Jones barn.

Wow. If you can't see the difference between a 2yo that bucks it's shins and one that is run intentionally with bucked shins, than you are either hopeless or disingenuous.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Obviously, he didn't do a very thorough job of ruining the colt. He ran until he was 6 years old and placed in multiple stakes (sprints of course) at age 5.

So, let me get this straight. He starts off his career four for four, not all in state bred company, winds up 5 for 21, and that is just because he was running against open company? Yeah.

In his fifth start, and I don't care what you say, Best Pal was a very nice 3yo, and Dinard? He was a freak, and he gave Dinard all he could handle.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Again, who were these promising horses you speak of? Timebank was another breakneck speedball that no one would have kept going. Other than the odd Saron Stable or Allen Paulson horse, I'm not sure he had a steady supply of young horses to trash in the first place.

He had numerous two and early three year olds that went one or two starts and done, while showing much promise. I can think of a few, but the names elude me right now.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If Jones had a major fault compared to anyone else in CA it was that he loved to ship his good horses all over the place. He probably knocked more out criss-crossing the country back and forth than he did sending to early retirements.

That's funny you say that. That's the one thing I respected about him, that he wasn't a ***** about shipping. I don't remember, however, him shipping his horses nearly as much as you are making that out to be.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Actually, as soon as he was back sprinting all he did was tie the world's record for 5.5f on the turf at Hollywood Park. Of course, once he had to start facing real sprinters he was further exposed from a class standpoint.

As soon as he was back to sprinting? He routed twice! He didn't beat Forest Glow in that 'world record' race as an early season 3yo.

You also know as well as I do that the 5.5f turf world record was set about 72 times over that HP turf course in two years. Seeing as that was his only win past about January or so of his three year old season, I would not trump that as evidence that all was right with him.

As for your comment about him being exposed from a class standpoint, that's nonsense. One, the Apollo that won the San Miguel would have beaten most sprinters in the country that day, as a freaking 2yo. The Sanford winner was in the race, don't forget. Formal Dinner, I thought, was underrated, and certainly was no Cal bred.

Also, he was not running in top company at all the last couple of years. Unless you count GGF as top flight racing.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Again, blame the owners. Gary Jones never thought the horse was a Derby candidate. He was forced to run him in the San Rafael instead of $100 grander at Golden Gate. Ironically, its the performance you seem to champion most in the horse's career, yet fail to see it as the most likely point where he busted his gut.

I'll concede that one to you. About the owners that is.

Ironically, you said he had his own way in the San Rafael, so I'm not really sure how he busted his gut.

I just found this old Bill Christine article. You might enjoy it.

He actually was a pretty good writer, looking back.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-12-..._1_santa-anita

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Wow. If you can't see the difference between a 2yo that bucks it's shins and one that is run intentionally with bucked shins, than you are either hopeless or disingenuous.

Spare me. Neither one of us knew the physical condition of the horse before any of its races. Jones was quoted as saying that he had a nagging shin issue that kept him from training the horse as strongly as he wanted. Some horses have to be "babied" to be able to run. Apollo was able to start 10 times that year following this ghastly deed of running (and winning by open lengths) the colt off a 5 month layoff.

So, let me get this straight. He starts off his career four for four, not all in state bred company, winds up 5 for 21, and that is just because he was running against open company? Yeah.

Yeah, is right. Wow, an early sprinting, state-bred 2yo that didn't train on? Read the f'n PPs. He went from Cal-bred 2yo stakes company to open, Graded company in a year that had Hansel, Dinard, Best Pal, Sea Cadet, Olympio, etc. and couldn't handle it. Then had to face older horses once he was a confirmed sprinter the rest of the year.

It's called not progressing with the rest of his crop.

In his fifth start, and I don't care what you say, Best Pal was a very nice 3yo, and Dinard? He was a freak, and he gave Dinard all he could handle.

This is the real story behind this. You're obsession Dinard. Ironic, of course, because talk about about a butcher job. You really like those quasi-unbeaten cripples that "would have been the best of all time if they could string two races together" types. Olympio gave Dinard all he could handle, too, in his start before the San Rafael. That CA crop had a ton of freaks that year, apparently.

I guess if Apollo just retired after the San Miguel or the San Rafael with a 4- for-4 or 4-for-5 record, he'd be someone's screenname.

DrugS had a great post on her last year where he showed the pps of some horse's first 5 starts and you'd have thought it was the Second Coming. Then he put up the rest of his record. It was Jolie's Halo.

Sometimes that don't pan out by no fault of the trainer.

He had numerous two and early three year olds that went one or two starts and done, while showing much promise. I can think of a few, but the names elude me right now.

Yep. I figured as much.

That's funny you say that. That's the one thing I respected about him, that he wasn't a ***** about shipping. I don't remember, however, him shipping his horses nearly as much as you are making that out to be.

Turkoman, By Land By Sea, Lakeway, Stalwars, Quiet American, Timebank, Good Command, Best Pal, Kostroma.

As soon as he was back to sprinting? He routed twice! He didn't beat Forest Glow in that 'world record' race as an early season 3yo.

He made his return to sprints on opening day at the Hollywood meet, got buried when he had to show some real sprint speed vs. quality foes. Later that meet he tied the world record in an allowance on the grass.

You also know as well as I do that the 5.5f turf world record was set about 72 times over that HP turf course in two years. Seeing as that was his only win past about January or so of his three year old season, I would not trump that as evidence that all was right with him.

Yeah, I guess you're right. It was broken by Pembroke, Classy Women, ie other stakes horses. Never mind that over the same course later that year he split the great Arizonian Answer Do and subsequent BC Sprint winner Cardmania.

But if you want to use his world record performance as evidence that he was a shell of his former self, whatever.

As for your comment about him being exposed from a class standpoint, that's nonsense. One, the Apollo that won the San Miguel would have beaten most sprinters in the country that day, as a freaking 2yo. The Sanford winner was in the race, don't forget. Formal Dinner, I thought, was underrated, and certainly was no Cal bred.

Great. Formal Dinner. What was he making, like his 15th start of the year in the San Miguel? Typical Lukas squeezing one more out. He also ran Tejano off a Hollywood Futurity win in the San Miguel. Formal Dinner was never more than Grade 3 calibur.

Next.

Also, he was not running in top company at all the last couple of years. Unless you count GGF as top flight racing.

He was 5 and 6 at that point. He never won a graded stakes, so why would he be running against top class horses? He was running at the ceiling he hit way back in his 4th start.

Ironically, you said he had his own way in the San Rafael, so I'm not really sure how he busted his gut.

I don't think he busted his gut, but you seem to think Jones derailed his career somehow. That would be the most likely race (against the best competition he ever faced and the best effort he ever put up). At any rate, Best Pal, IIRC, hounded him with an early bid down the backstretch. Having to face pressure from a real Grade 1 horse is no cakewalk.