Two Punch euthanized at 28

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

From the perspective of keeping horses sound and healthy, fukc yeah.

Was he really worse than any other notable trainer stabled in California?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Was he really worse than any other notable trainer stabled in California?

Yes.

There might have been worse than him, I'll grant you that, but few trainers did so little with so much.

His handling of Apollo was Appolling.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Yes.

There might have been worse than him, I'll grant you that, but few trainers did so little with so much.

His handling of Apollo was Appolling.

Apollo's career was steered by owner and DRF pedigree expert Leon Rasmussen, who planned the mating that produced the pony-sized horse. Using dosage and whatever else, he was convinced the horse could get 10f. Apollo was always a mere sprinter and not even a top class one after he starting facing open company.

Not sure what extraordinary talents Gary Jones was in command of, but nearly all of his top horses were major winners as older horses. A lot of his horses were secondhand projects (failed Euros, Argentinia imports, etc) as well.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Apollo's career was steered by owner and DRF pedigree expert Leon Rasmussen, who planned the mating that produced the pony-sized horse. Using dosage and whatever else, he was convinced the horse could get 10f. Apollo was always a mere sprinter and not even a top class one after he starting facing open company.

Not sure what extraordinary talents Gary Jones was in command of, but nearly all of his top horses were major winners as older horses. A lot of his horses were secondhand projects (failed Euros, Argentinia imports, etc) as well.

Apollo's breeding wasn't exactly that of a crack sprinter. By a son of Lyhpard that was out of a Sir Ivor mare, if I recall correctly.

That aside, I'm more than confident Jones wrecked, early on, what was going to be a magnificent horse.

And if you think his performance going two turns against Dinard and Best Pal wasn't awesome, I don't know what to say to you.

Jones, his strength, was with older imports that didn't have to survive his handling as a 2yo or early 3yo.

I was skeptical he retired, btw, due to health problems. Lot's of people with his 'condition' manage to work just fine, even in horse racing.

That much, I'll admit, is speculation on my part.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Apollo's breeding wasn't exactly that of a crack sprinter. By a son of Lyhpard that was out of a Sir Ivor mare, if I recall correctly.

Falstaff had about 5 foals total before Apollo came along. Apollo's bottom side is nothing but sprinters and Falstaff's own dam, Ivorina, produced sprinter Ivory Mint, who in turn produced sprinter Malibu Mint.

That aside, I'm more than confident Jones wrecked, early on, what was going to be a magnificent horse.

How exactly? The colt broke its maiden in July, bucked shins, came back and won two 6f sprints by open lengths, then barely held on in a 7f Cal-bred stakes before his first defeat in the San Rafael at 8f. Then he got beat open lengths at 9f in the Jim Beam. Sounds like a sensible campaign heading towards the Derby. However, predictably (by Gary Jones no less), distance limitations set in.

And if you think his performance going two turns against Dinard and Best Pal wasn't awesome, I don't know what to say to you.

He got away with a :23+ opening quarter that day and was able to hold off a comebacking Best Pal but not a streaking Dinard. Best Pal was a bit pea-hearted all spring anyways, ironically coming to hand in the summer and fall after being transfered to...you guess it...Gary Jones.

Not sure why this runner-up effort is the stuff of legend. It was a big try from an overachieving Cal-bred of modest origin. Nothing more than that. Came back down to the level hinted at by the Cal Breeder's Stakes soon afterwards.

Jones, his strength, was with older imports that didn't have to survive his handling as a 2yo or early 3yo.

Apollo made 23 lifetime starts. Its not like he disappeared after he got exposed at Turfway.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Falstaff had about 5 foals total before Apollo came along. Apollo's bottom side is nothing but sprinters and Falstaff's own dam, Ivorina, produced sprinter Ivory Mint, who in turn produced sprinter Malibu Mint.

I wouldn't say nothing but sprinters in Apollo's bottom side, though it certainly leans that way. Then again, most of those are sired by speed/sprint sires.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

How exactly? The colt broke its maiden in July, bucked shins, came back and won two 6f sprints by open lengths, then barely held on in a 7f Cal-bred stakes before his first defeat in the San Rafael at 8f. Then he got beat open lengths at 9f in the Jim Beam. Sounds like a sensible campaign heading towards the Derby. However, predictably (by Gary Jones no less), distance limitations set in.

Do you remember Apollo's debut? He had blistering works, including, if I recall correctly from 20 years ago, a 6f work around 110 flat, in the early to mid summer of his 2yo year. In his debut, he looks like he's going to win by 10, then pulls a Sunday Silence in the stretch, holds on to win in like 111 and change, and is laid up. After he came back, I think it was in the San Miguel several months later, a race he crushed them in, Jones was interviewed about Apollo. He said the reason he ran so erratically in the stretch is because even though he already had bucked shins, he really wanted to get a race into him.

I already thought he was a butcher, but wow man. It was only a matter of time before he unraveled Apollo.

Looking back on horses that debuted with Jones, you really will have a hard time finding promising horses that lasted. Turkoman? I think Reigning Countess maybe? For every Turkoman, there were many more Timebanks.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

He got away with a :23+ opening quarter that day and was able to hold off a comebacking Best Pal but not a streaking Dinard. Best Pal was a bit pea-hearted all spring anyways, ironically coming to hand in the summer and fall after being transfered to...you guess it...Gary Jones.

Thanks. As I said above, horses that he inherited typically fared much better than ones he started out with.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Not sure why this runner-up effort is the stuff of legend. It was a big try from an overachieving Cal-bred of modest origin. Nothing more than that. Came back down to the level hinted at by the Cal Breeder's Stakes soon afterwards.


Apollo made 23 lifetime starts. Its not like he disappeared after he got exposed at Turfway.

He never was the same after the Turfway race.

Apollo was FAST and should have had a much better career.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Do you remember Apollo's debut? He had blistering works, including, if I recall correctly from 20 years ago, a 6f work around 110 flat, in the early to mid summer of his 2yo year. In his debut, he looks like he's going to win by 10, then pulls a Sunday Silence in the stretch, holds on to win in like 111 and change, and is laid up. After he came back, I think it was in the San Miguel several months later, a race he crushed them in, Jones was interviewed about Apollo. He said the reason he ran so erratically in the stretch is because even though he already had bucked shins, he really wanted to get a race into him.

I already thought he was a butcher, but wow man. It was only a matter of time before he unraveled Apollo.

The San Miguel was his 3rd race of his 2yo year. Essentially, all horses buck their shins to one degree or another. Certainly not a shocking turn of events for a fast working, early 2yo type and certainly not a malady isolated to the Gary Jones barn.

Obviously, he didn't do a very thorough job of ruining the colt. He ran until he was 6 years old and placed in multiple stakes (sprints of course) at age 5.

Looking back on horses that debuted with Jones, you really will have a hard time finding promising horses that lasted. Turkoman? I think Reigning Countess maybe? For every Turkoman, there were many more Timebanks.

Again, who were these promising horses you speak of? Timebank was another breakneck speedball that no one would have kept going. Other than the odd Saron Stable or Allen Paulson horse, I'm not sure he had a steady supply of young horses to trash in the first place.

If Jones had a major fault compared to anyone else in CA it was that he loved to ship his good horses all over the place. He probably knocked more out criss-crossing the country back and forth than he did sending to early retirements.

He never was the same after the Turfway race.

Actually, as soon as he was back sprinting all he did was tie the world's record for 5.5f on the turf at Hollywood Park. Of course, once he had to start facing real sprinters he was further exposed from a class standpoint.

Apollo was FAST and should have had a much better career.

Again, blame the owners. Gary Jones never thought the horse was a Derby candidate. He was forced to run him in the San Rafael instead of $100 grander at Golden Gate. Ironically, its the performance you seem to champion most in the horse's career, yet fail to see it as the most likely point where he busted his gut.