TVG

Indian Charlie · #1 06-21-2011, 01:26 PM

I think Bern was certainly overrated.

I'm not saying he sucked, mind you, but the hype on him was overboard.

Calzone Lord · #2 06-21-2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I think Bern was certainly overrated.

Yes, but the immortal Barbaro, and his one good dirt race, wasn't.

miraja2 · #3 06-21-2011, 02:10 PM

My take:

Top 5 overrated since 2000

1) Zenyatta (no-brainer here)
2) Lost in the Fog (clearly held top spot until 2 strong years of Z-nation pushed her over the top)
3) Bernardini (very talented and a productive 3yo....but people talked about him as if he had actually beaten somebody).
4) Pepper's Pride (People talked about her. Some even liked her. She didn't deserve any of it.)
5) Smarty Jones (I was a fan too....but people got carried away).

Top 5 underrated since 2000

1) Invasor - Undisputedly better than others who have received way more hype and praise.
2) Birdstone - The 2004 Belmont wasn't just some bizarre fluke. On a dry surface he was a good colt.
3) Medaglia Doro - Tended to come in second in the "big" races....but aren't the Travers, Whitney, Donn etc, also pretty big races?
4) Perfect Drift - Became an internet punch line late in his career, but he was a very good 4yo who continued to be competitive at the top level for the next 2-3 years.
5) English Channel - It will probably be awhile before another American turf horse puts together a 3-year run of that quality. Despite GPK's best efforts....I still think he's underrated.

Indian Charlie · #4 06-21-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Yes, but the immortal Barbaro, and his one good dirt race, wasn't.

His turf races all sucked too.

slotdirt · #5 06-21-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

His turf races all sucked too.

I do take issue with that statement.

Calzone Lord · #6 06-21-2011, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

His turf races all sucked too.

For a 2-year-old, they were absolutely great 2yo turf performances.

Before anyone can attempt lists like miraja2's ... you'd need to first outline and define some things.

For instance, would 'most overrated' mean most overrated at a certain point in their racing career - or 'most overrated' for a career as a whole?

And - most overrated by who? Overrated by pretty horsey tards and slapdick handicappers on the Internet? Or, overrated by solid and respect worthy racing people like Jon White, who just don't have the most complete set of handicaping skills out there? Or, overrated by the most skilled type of players who simply should have known better?

A cool and rare case was Xtra Heat - who was massively overrated through the first half of her 3yo season - but she developed into a sprinting beast in the second half of her 3yo season and had a sensational career for a female sprinter.

wild barry · #7 06-21-2011, 03:00 PM

I thought Mineshaft was overated during his horse of the year season. He loved Belmont winning the Suburban, Woodward, and Jockey Club Gold Cup. He beat alot of horses that had less than stellar records. Although Evening Attire and Volponi were quality horses. I think he retired sound after Jockey Club and chose not to run in BC Classic.

Calzone Lord · #8 06-21-2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild barry

I thought Mineshaft was overated during his horse of the year season. He loved Belmont winning the Suburban, Woodward, and Jockey Club Gold Cup. He beat alot of horses that had less than stellar records. Although Evening Attire and Volponi were quality horses. I think he retired sound after Jockey Club and chose not to run in BC Classic.

There is all truth to what you say other than what is in bold - but - imagine Mineshaft in the handicap division climate of the last few years?

He would have been Cigar v2.0 - and with Neil Howard training him no less.

slotdirt · #9 06-21-2011, 03:07 PM

I always thought Artie Schiller was a bit overrated, though I doubt many agree with me here. Nobiz like Shobiz also comes to mind.

Calzone Lord · #10 06-21-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I always thought Artie Schiller was a bit overrated,

For a top US based turf horse (via Brazil anyway) - Leroydesanimueax - or however the fucl< you spell it - was underrated. He was a beast...albeit with Frankel's aid.

Indian Charlie · #11 06-21-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I always thought Artie Schiller was a bit overrated, though I doubt many agree with me here. Nobiz like Shobiz also comes to mind.

i agree on both, but nobiz, i think everyone finally woke up on that one.

miraja2 · #12 06-21-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Nobiz like Shobiz also comes to mind.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ght=unbeatable

King Glorious · #13 06-21-2011, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wild barry

I thought Mineshaft was overated during his horse of the year season. He loved Belmont winning the Suburban, Woodward, and Jockey Club Gold Cup. He beat alot of horses that had less than stellar records. Although Evening Attire and Volponi were quality horses. I think he retired sound after Jockey Club and chose not to run in BC Classic.

I thought the top older males that year, in no order, were Congaree, Medaglia d'Oro, Perfect Drift, Candy Ride, Pleasantly Perfect, Mineshaft, and Milwaukee Brew. During that course of that season, Mineshaft only faced one of the other six in that group (Perfect Drift) and he lost that race. I think it's fair to say that when a horse runs in the races he ran in during the fall, you can't say they are ducking anyone. At the same time, I think it's also fair to say that he benefitted from the others facing and beating each other on several different occassions and softening their respective resumes and like you, I also felt like the decision not to run in the BC was made after he won the JCGC and the connections felt that they were in the lead for HOY. I felt that they took a gamble that Congaree or Medaglia d'Oro wouldn't win the Classic and maybe take HOY from them and it paid off.

Calzone Lord · #14 06-21-2011, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I thought the top older males that year, in no order, were Congaree, Medaglia d'Oro, Perfect Drift, Candy Ride, Pleasantly Perfect, Mineshaft, and Milwaukee Brew.

Big deal. He ran in the majority of the big handicap races. More so than the other did. He gave weight to pretty respectable horses - and beat them all but once - always running strong against the clock. That is a very strong collection of handicap horses right there - and the vote for HOY was not close.

Look who Cigar beat in the vast majority of his wins - and Mineshaft was about as fast as Cigar. They both had the same perfect running style and both were very tactical horses.

Other than RandallScott and a few other Thoro-Graph fans - no one overrates Mineshaft.