If he wins - will they put him in the Hall of Fame?

[Dahoss]

Just to put an end to this on my end (I'm bored, but not this bored) I'm fine if none of them ever get in.

But if Borel should get in, so should Solis based on their career numbers. Chavez doesn't even belong in the discussion despite him beating DrugS on the front end at Gulfstream.

Is it too early for a drink?

[TouchOfGrey]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Is it too early for a drink?

It's never too early for a drink.

[slotdirt]

I don't have 1/1000th the horse racing knowledge of these two combatants, but doesn't winning three different Derbies kind of trump 3,821 SoCal riding titles, at least in the eyes of turf writers?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I don't have 1/1000th the horse racing knowledge of these two combatants, but doesn't winning three different Derbies kind of trump 3,821 SoCal riding titles, at least in the eyes of turf writers?

If you think Borel should be in, it's the only reason he would deserve it over the other guys IMO, and I get that. I don't agree, but I can see it.

[slotdirt]

It would kind of be like sticking Dizzy Dean in the baseball Hall of Fame. Then again, baseball's Borel is probably Roger Maris or Kirk Gibson, and neither of them will ever get in the Hall.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

doesn't winning three different Derbies kind of trump 3,821 SoCal riding titles,

I actually think the highest honor a jockey can have is winning an eclipse for years outstanding jockey.

Put it this way - Gary Stevens won 3 Kentucky Derby's - he won 10 Santa Anita Derby's - but only one time (1998) did he manage to win an eclipse.

Both Calvin Borel and Alex Solis never once were even nominated for this award. Meaning - neither one ever finished in the top 3 in the voting points.

The Kentucky Derby is by far the biggest event - and the toughest race for a rider - but it's still just one race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Chavez doesn't even belong in the discussion despite him beating DrugS on the front end at Gulfstream.

And beating about 10 to 12 other Hall of Fame riders in the prime of their career in 1999.

2003 : Jerry Bailey
2002 : Jerry Bailey
2001 : Jerry Bailey
2000 : Jerry Bailey
1999 : Jorge F. Chavez
1998 : Gary L. Stevens
1997 : Jerry Bailey
1996 : Jerry Bailey
1995 : Jerry Bailey

When I think of vintage Jorge Chavez - I think of his Breeders Cup Classic ride on the hopeless chance NY Bred gelding L'Carriere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydT4S...A54CBFBDE8DA99

The horse had the exact same running sytle as Cigar and was about the first throwout on paper because he figured to be looking Cigar in the eye and hooked with him for pretty much the whole way.

Chavez guns him out of the gate - and rushes up inside to get position on the tire tracks - the same tire tracks Inside Information rode that day - and under an all-out drive for almost every step of 10fs - L'Carriere runs 2nd to Cigar and is coming back to him late.

The "Chop Chop in the slop" was a VERY legit betting angle. Chavez's ROI on on wet tracks was incredible.

The guys who hated Chavez as a rider are the guys who don't value a jockeys ability on the front-end. He was very mediocre from off the pace.

[Dahoss]

L'Carriere wasn't as hopeless as you are making him out to be.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

L'Carriere wasn't as hopeless as you are making him out to be.

Yes - he was only 51/1 and probably should have been 5,000/1 in a fairly run race.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=8

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes - he was only 51/1 and probably should have been 5,000/1 in a fairly run race.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbP...try=USA&race=8

Come on man. You're a really smart guy, but if I was you, I'd take a mulligan in this thread.

I was at Saratoga in 1995 when L'Carriere was 2nd to Unaccounted For (wnd choice in the Classic) in the Whitney. I was also there a few weeks later when he romped (with Bailey up) in the Saratoga Cup over Unaccounted For (not one of Pat Day's better rides). I was also there the following year when he defended his crown in the Saratoga Cup. He had great wet track breeding and ran his best races going 10 furlongs.

Like I said, he wasn't as hopeless as you're making him out to be. Did Justin Dew steal your login?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Ok, whatever. I hope you boxed that exacta with Cigar and cleaned up.

I guess Chavez always sucked and Solis is some kind of dominant west coast jockey I've somehow massively underrated - while simultaniously overrating a half dozen to a dozen other guys in the same room - over all of these years.

My lying eyes and lying stats be damned.

I'm also going to take a stab and say that Chavez isn't a good rider anymore as a 50-year-old man because his riding style was by far the busiest I've ever seen from an accomplished jockey. Not being at peak fitness and health probably isn't as important when you just sit still and urge late.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Ok, whatever. I hope you boxed that exacta with Cigar and cleaned up.

I guess Chavez always sucked and Solis is some kind of dominant west coast jockey I've somehow massively underrated - while simultaniously overrating a half dozen to a dozen other guys in the same room - over all of these years.

My lying eyes and lying stats be damned.

I'm also going to take a stab and say that Chavez isn't a good rider anymore as a 50-year-old man because his riding style was by far the busiest I've ever seen from an accomplished jockey. Not being at peak fitness and health probably isn't as important when you just sit still and urge late.

I guess this is as close to admitting you were wrong as you'll get, so I'll take it.

I grew up watching Chavez ride, man. He was a very good rider back in the day and a terrific wet track rider. I never said he wasn't and it was common knowledge to anyone playing NY.

But stat wise, Solis has had a better career. That's it.