Greatest Living Racehorse?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

zenyatta duh...

[Dahoss]

Holy Bull

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Holy Bull

[Thunder Gulch]

Cigar

[miraja2]

If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by miraja2

If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If GZ had the same kind of schedule that CIGAR had, how many races would he have won or would have missed because he couldn't have kept up?!~

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If GZ had the same kind of schedule that CIGAR had, how many races would he have won or would have missed because he couldn't have kept up?!~

So it's OK for you to speculate, but not others.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

So it's OK for you to speculate, but not others.

No - just showing there's another side to shoulda would coulda. Gotta go with what's been done - not what anyone thinks MIGHT have been done.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If GZ had the same kind of schedule that CIGAR had, how many races would he have won or would have missed because he couldn't have kept up?!~

Oops, I should have read further. I would have seen that you made the same point 6 hrs ago that I just made.

--Dunbar

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by miraja2

If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.

The flip side to that is putting Ghostzapper in Cigar's races.

If he had to contend with horses like Louis Quatorze, Siphon, Urgent Request, Honour and Glory, etc. on the front end, he probably would have been kept sprinting.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The flip side to that is putting Ghostzapper in Cigar's races.

If he had to contend with horses like Louis Quatorze, Siphon, Urgent Request, Honour and Glory, etc. on the front end, he probably would have been kept sprinting.

Ghostzapper didn't need to be on the front. He was just so much better than his competition, Castellano would often let him roll and he'd still have plenty left in the stretch.

As has been said before, 'greatness' is loosely defined. Some think it's longevity, some think it's brilliance, some think it's a combination of the two. Ghostzapper was as brilliant as any horse in the last 30 years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider him the best living racehorse without getting into a dozen pages of hypothetical matchups.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Ghostzapper didn't need to be on the front. He was just so much better than his competition, Castellano would often let him roll and he'd still have plenty left in the stretch.

Didn't Bobby Frankel go to great lengths to convince Ken Ramsey to keep Roses In May from dueling with Ghostzapper in the BC Classic? At least that's what Steve Haskin said. Seems like Frankel was aware that the colt had his limits.

Looking (crudely I'll admit) at Cigar's races, he routinely ran in 9-10f races with :45+ and :46+ half-mile fractions. Ghostzapper, who made all of 2 starts around two turns, barely edged the good, but hardly great, St. Liam when encountering those sorts of fractions.

I would think he'd be vulnerable in at least some of those races Cigar ran in.

As has been said before, 'greatness' is loosely defined. Some think it's longevity, some think it's brilliance, some think it's a combination of the two. Ghostzapper was as brilliant as any horse in the last 30 years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider him the best living racehorse without getting into a dozen pages of hypothetical matchups.

Well, isn't that sort of the intent of this thread?

If you're opposed to getting involved in "hypothetical matchup" debates, maybe refrain from piggy-backing off miraja's posts.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by miraja2

If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.

I agree with you. But how about if they ran a race every month for a year? How many would Cigar have won? At least 6, IMO. GZ would have crashed after 4-5.

Durability and consistency are also elements of greatness.

--Dunbar

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I agree with you. But how about if they ran a race every month for a year? How many would Cigar have won? At least 6, IMO. GZ would have crashed after 4-5.

Durability and consistency are also elements of greatness.

Like all hypotheticals - including the one I brought up - there's no way to know for sure. Obviously Cigar deserves a lot of credit for the sheer number of big races he won....something Ghostzapper didn't come close to equalling.

While you are correct in saying that those factors are also "elements of greatness," I think versatility matters some too. There just aren't a lot of horses that I can think of in recent memory (including Cigar) who had the ability to run absolutely brilliant sprints like GZ did in the Vosburgh and the Tom Fool and then come back and easily defeat really good route horses like Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect going 10f.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Holy Bull

Holy Bull and Silver Charm would be in my Top 3. But I would put Cigar at #1.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Holy Bull

Ive run into Mike Smith a few times and most notably after the BC this year. I don't know him but he was nice enough to stop and take a picture and chat even after that tough loss. I asked him who his best mount was. I even said "holy bull?"

He said "Zenyatta, in all ways Zenyatta".

It could have been the libations or his emotions speaking a few hours after a tough loss but I swear that is what the man said and there were no reporters or boom mics around.

I know that this is hearsay and I will get my deserved thrashing for posting this. Either way, I took him at his word and if that is the case, I don't think its such a joke that she is mentioned.

If we are judging strictly on what we individually perceive as "quality" in a racehorse, then I think GZ or Cigar are both worthy and I think most would agree that an argument could be made.

If greatness is measured solely in terms of the imprint left on the sport, I think Zenyatta is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse. Thirty years from now, will we talking more about her or Cigar?

Again, it depends on how one defines "greatness".

[Danzig]

for the sake of integrity, i'm hoping people talk more about cigar than zenyatta 30 years from now. since most of her fans aren't going to attend more races since she's retired, i'd imagine talk of her will wither and die in future years. but racing die hards won't forget cigar. nor should they.


i'd have to think holy bull would be the greatest living. cigar close behind.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Ive run into Mike Smith a few times and most notably after the BC this year. I don't know him but he was nice enough to stop and take a picture and chat even after that tough loss. I asked him who his best mount was. I even said "holy bull?"

He said "Zenyatta, in all ways Zenyatta".

It could have been the libations or his emotions speaking a few hours after a tough loss but I swear that is what the man said and there were no reporters or boom mics around.

I know that this is hearsay and I will get my deserved thrashing for posting this. Either way, I took him at his word and if that is the case, I don't think its such a joke that she is mentioned.

If we are judging strictly on what we individually perceive as "quality" in a racehorse, then I think GZ or Cigar are both worthy and I think most would agree that an argument could be made.

If greatness is measured solely in terms of the imprint left on the sport, I think Zenyatta is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse. Thirty years from now, will we talking more about her or Cigar?

Again, it depends on how one defines "greatness".

No offense, but I'd rather pull my toenails out one by one than have another Zenyatta discussion. However, Smith also said she was the best horse ever. He might be a bit biased and was totally (understandable) caught up in the Zenyattatardness.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If greatness is measured solely in terms of the imprint left on the sport, I think Zenyatta is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse. Thirty years from now, will we talking more about her or Cigar?

Again, it depends on how one defines "greatness".

You really believe Zenyatta left the biggest imprint on the sport.

Hands down.. Smarty Jones and Funny Cide left a much bigger imprint on the sport. Not even close! People actually watch and follow the triple crown races.

so if we are going by that, Smarty Jones is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

You really believe Zenyatta left the biggest imprint on the sport.

Hands down.. Smarty Jones and Funny Cide left a much bigger imprint on the sport. Not even close! People actually watch and follow the triple crown races.

so if we are going by that, Smarty Jones is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse.

And you would have an argument although it seems that his stature gets worse with time instead of better. At the end of the day he didn't really "do" anything. Smarty was another three year old that fell just short of a triple crown and was retired early. He had a HUGE following but in reality his star lasted for two months.

I think Z will be discussed for better or worse for many years to come although not right now by me for fear of permanent banishment.