Finley @ ESPN: Good times are over

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How? There have been lots of tracks that have closed in the last 15-20 years, Atlantic City, Hialeah, Longacres, Sportsmans, Rockingham, Garden State, Bowie...how did those track closing make things better?

The idea that reducing exposure in large metropolitan area's is going to lead to an expansion in the sport's fan/gambler base is a dubious one.

How many races were contested in 1990 vs. 2011?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

How many races were contested in 1990 vs. 2011?

A whole lot less...




in 2010

[tector]

You are comparing eras when demand was fundamentally different, and it is the demand side you seem to have no clue about.

In 1989, outside of NV, AC and some low-limit card rooms in SoCal, what exactly was racing's competition for the gambling dollar? Dogs--a vastly inferior form of racing? Jai Alai in FL and CT? We didn't even have a lottery until 1988!

Dude, the gaming market changed COMPLETELY in that period. We have way, WAY too much racing for this market. If the government went "hands off"--taxed all gambling equally, did NOT require racinos to maintain racing, did NOT require purses supplemented by other forms of gambling--horse racing would be slaughtered in a free market today.

Wake up, man.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by tector

You are comparing eras when demand was fundamentally different, and it is the demand side you seem to have no clue about.

In 1989, outside of NV, AC and some low-limit card rooms in SoCal, what exactly was racing's competition for the gambling dollar? Dogs--a vastly inferior form of racing? Jai Alai in FL and CT? We didn't even have a lottery until 1988!

Dude, the gaming market changed COMPLETELY in that period. We have way, WAY too much racing for this market. If the government went "hands off"--taxed all gambling equally, did NOT require racinos to maintain racing, did NOT require purses supplemented by other forms of gambling--horse racing would be slaughtered in a free market today.

Wake up, man.

There are 25000 less races than in 1989. Dont you think THAT is a response to the market?

Do you seriously think reducing the scope of the industry is going to influence govt in a positive manner?

We all know that we are basically held hostage by racinos and effect govt. But what you are saying is that the hostage committing suicide is a better option than being held hostage.

The problem is that the price of this form of gambling is not competitive in the market place. Reducing the number of tracks or races doesn't change this.

[tector]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There are 25000 less races than in 1989. Dont you think THAT is a response to the market?

Do you seriously think reducing the scope of the industry is going to influence govt in a positive manner?

We all know that we are basically held hostage by racinos and effect govt. But what you are saying is that the hostage committing suicide is a better option than being held hostage.

The problem is that the price of this form of gambling is not competitive in the market place. Reducing the number of tracks or races doesn't change this.

WTF--influence govt? Govt is floating racing in most places, to "save jobs" (aka welfare). My point to you is the opposite--it needs to conform to the market, which the government should withdraw from.

Maybe a handful of states need to really be breeding states--propping up Iowa, or Indiana, or NJ, or a bunch of other bogus breeding states is
BS. Never would happen in a free market.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by tector

WTF--influence govt? Govt is floating racing in most places, to "save jobs" (aka welfare). My point to you is the opposite--it needs to conform to the market, which the government should withdraw from.

Maybe a handful of states need to really be breeding states--propping up Iowa, or Indiana, or NJ, or a bunch of other bogus breeding states is
BS. Never would happen in a free market.

Dude this is 2011. Where is a free market in the gambling or for that matter in the agricultural business?

Those who are appalled at govt influence havent been paying attention.

[tector]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dude this is 2011. Where is a free market in the gambling or for that matter in the agricultural business?

Those who are appalled at govt influence havent been paying attention.

OK, Karl, now I get it. The government should pick the "winners".

Bulletin--racing is going to lose under that scenario, too. It can't compete in influence, except maybe in KY--or maybe in NY, so long as it serves as an ATM for crooked pols.

The only difference will be that the survivors will not be the result of any rational market decisions (witness the ascent of PA racing).

[tector]

And, PS, I did not even address simulcasting, which was virtually unknown back in '89.

Let's see--so on a nice summer day now I can bet SAR, DMR, ARL or MTH. Or I can bet my local dinky track, Crap Meadows, like my grandpa did. Hmmm...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by tector

And, PS, I did not even address simulcasting, which was virtually unknown back in '89.

Let's see--so on a nice summer day now I can bet SAR, DMR, ARL or MTH. Or I can bet my local dinky track, Crap Meadows, like my grandpa did. Hmmm...

And if Crap Meadows doesn't exist then 2011 Tector may never get exposed to horse racing. How does Crap Meadows closing make racing at those other tracks better?

Racing isn't a singular entity with pooled money being wasted on purses at small tracks. If Crap Meadows closes and is replaced by a simulcasting facility what makes you think that the govt wont simply take that $$ that used to go to purses at Crap Meadows now that the entire economic impact and jobs argument is now gone?

[tector]

Wow.

Crap Meadows ISN'T surviving unless the government props it up--such as by limiting simulcasting to there, or by allowing other forms of wagering to only exist on its grounds.

IF HORSE RACING CAN'T SURVIVE SOMEWHERE, IT SHOULDN'T. The sport should find its own level in marketplace. If it is a vastly smaller level, THEN IT IS.

How hard is that to understand? Do we have to go into Adam Smith v. Karl Marx here?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by tector

Wow.

Crap Meadows ISN'T surviving unless the government props it up--such as by limiting simulcasting to there, or by allowing other forms of wagering to only exist on its grounds.

IF HORSE RACING CAN'T SURVIVE SOMEWHERE, IT SHOULDN'T. The sport should find its own level in marketplace. If it is a vastly smaller level, THEN IT IS.

How hard is that to understand? Do we have to go into Adam Smith v. Karl Marx here?

What are you some radical fundamentalist economist who worships at the alter of free market purity??

Let's not forget that the govt has made billions of dollars from horseracing that it did nothing to deserve. The Mob made less money putting the strong arm on businesses than state govts who often make the same cut on each dollar bet as the tracks and horseman. That is on top of taxes paid by the corps that own the tracks and horseman who earned purse money.

Let's not forget that the money that govt mandates (laws) steer to racing come not from govt coffers but from other forms of gambling often AT THAT TRACK!

Let's not forget that in the vast majority of states tracks are restricted by the govt in not only the dates that they run but the pricing of their product. NYRA cant give out free passes because NYS says it cant.

Like I said before we all know that the way things have worked out we are beholden to outside interests. We all know that is not a good situation. But I still dont see how closing tracks does anything but serve as a template for every other state/racino company that might get the bright idea to just get rid of racing.