Divisional best by decade since 1900

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

By less, I wasn't referring at all to number of starts. I was talking about taking the paths of least resistence. I wouldn't care if a horse ran twice. If they took on the toughest competition out there, I'd value that more than one that starts 10 times and doesn't face anything other than allowance competition. You mention that Medaglia lost both of his starts at 10f. While that's true, just saying that doesn't even begin to tell the story. In the Pacific Classic, if I'm not mistaken, he also broke the track record while losing. In the BC, he ran his eyeballs out while losing to a pretty good 10f horse while dueling throughout the race with another one in Congaree. This whole thing about him and 10f is pretty stupid. It wasn't the distance that found him out in either of those races. If that were the case, he wouldn't have won the Travers and lost the Belmont by just a 1/2 length, I don't care who he was facing in those races. Personally, I think too much is made of wins and losses and the actual performance is lost. A horse like Rachel Alexandra is made into some kind of superhero for dueling with Big Drama and holding off Mine that Bird or for dueling in the Woodward and holding off Macho Again yet MDO is downgraded because he couldn't hold off Pleasantly Perfect after dueling with Congaree and Winning Colors is downgraded because she couldn't hold off Risen Star after dueling with Forty Niner (and running him into submission) in the Preakness.

I didn't say Medaglia D'Oro couldn't stay 10f. All I said was that he lost both his starts that year at 10f in 2003. I presume some Eclipse voters might have scored Mineshaft a little higher since he won 3 races at a classic distance in 2003, whereas MDO had none.

You talk about how Congaree and MDO and Perfect Drift were beaten in the Classic but you miss the point I was making in the first place. That they were all there to face each other meant that all of them except for one would have to lose. Congaree faced Perfect Drift in Kentucky. They both couldn't win. MDO and Candy Ride both couldn't win the Pacific Classic. Congaree, Milwaukee Brew, and Pleasantly Perfect were all in the San Antonio. This is what I'm talking about. Their records were all going to suffer because they were consistently facing each other while Mineshaft was getting a steady diet of lower level horses.

Consistently facing each other? Congaree and Pleasantly Perfect faced each other 3 times. Congaree and Milwaukee Brew faced each other twice. Congaree faced Perfect Drift twice. See a pattern developing? Only Congaree took on all comers (he even when toe-to-toe with the year's best sprinter, too).

Pleasantly Perfect made all of 4 starts, all at Santa Anita. His record "suffered" because he didn't run between March and October and he couldn't get close to Congaree without a tailor-made setup.

Instead of trying to pad your argument with nonsense, just say what your main gripe is...that Mineshaft didn't run in the BC Classic. Who cares? The race was won by the worst of your top 7 older horses that year when the beneficiary of one of the greatest setups of all time. Mineshaft had the more illustrious campaign of the bunch. The only other horse that didn't have a cherry-picked season was Congaree, but he had too many high-profile losses (Big Cap, Met Mile, etc.) to overtake Mineshaft.

I find your argument pretty ironic coming from a guy who thinks Java Gold should have been HOY in 1987.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I didn't say Medaglia D'Oro couldn't stay 10f. All I said was that he lost both his starts that year at 10f in 2003. I presume some Eclipse voters might have scored Mineshaft a little higher since he won 3 races at a classic distance in 2003, whereas MDO had none.



Consistently facing each other? Congaree and Pleasantly Perfect faced each other 3 times. Congaree and Milwaukee Brew faced each other twice. Congaree faced Perfect Drift twice. See a pattern developing? Only Congaree took on all comers (he even when toe-to-toe with the year's best sprinter, too).

Pleasantly Perfect made all of 4 starts, all at Santa Anita. His record "suffered" because he didn't run between March and October and he couldn't get close to Congaree without a tailor-made setup.

Instead of trying to pad your argument with nonsense, just say what your main gripe is...that Mineshaft didn't run in the BC Classic. Who cares? The race was won by the worst of your top 7 older horses that year when the beneficiary of one of the greatest setups of all time. Mineshaft had the more illustrious campaign of the bunch. The only other horse that didn't have a cherry-picked season was Congaree, but he had too many high-profile losses (Big Cap, Met Mile, etc.) to overtake Mineshaft.

I find your argument pretty ironic coming from a guy who thinks Java Gold should have been HOY in 1987.

You're getting worse. Not including every matchup:
Perfect Drift faced Congaree in at Turfway and Mineshaft in the Foster
Congaree faced everyone all year
Medaglia faced Candy Ride at Del Mar and ran in the BC
Pleasantly Perfect faced Congaree and Milwaukee Brew in February and was in the Classic.

Of those seven, all of them faced more than one other member of the group and most of them did so multiple times. The only one that didn't was Mineshaft. This is a fact that you can't argue.

I couldn't care less if Mineshaft had run in the Classic or not. Quite often, the horse I've thought should have been HOY didn't run in the Classic. Still doesn't change the fact that while the others were facing each other, some of them several times, Mineshaft got away without having to be challenged by any of them and the one time he was, he lost. Debate it how you want to but that's the truth. If he had to face Congaree a couple of times or Medaglia or Candy Ride, I doubt he comes out with the same kind of record he had.

And yeah, the Java Gold argument is the same. He only beat Alysheba, Bet Twice, Gulch, Nostalgia's Star, Cryptoclearance, Polish Navy, Broad Brush, Temperate Sil, Cutlass Reality, etc. Save for Ferdinand and Lost Code, he beat just about every other top class dirt horse out there.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Perfect Drift faced Congaree in at Turfway and Mineshaft in the Foster
Congaree faced everyone all year
Medaglia faced Candy Ride at Del Mar and ran in the BC
Pleasantly Perfect faced Congaree and Milwaukee Brew in February and was in the Classic.

Yeah, I mentioned all that already. These one-off matchups amongst a group of 6 horses is hardly "consistently facing each other" or "several times" as you have commented. The only two that faced each other more than twice was Congaree and Pleasantly Perfect.

Why is a single horse's record (Mineshaft) being pitted against 6 other horses collectively? Consider those 6 horses individually, and none can overcome the accomplishments of Mineshaft.

I couldn't care less if Mineshaft had run in the Classic or not. Quite often, the horse I've thought should have been HOY didn't run in the Classic. Still doesn't change the fact that while the others were facing each other, some of them several times, Mineshaft got away without having to be challenged by any of them and the one time he was, he lost.

He wintered at Fair Grounds, made a couple of starts in KY, and was based in NY the rest of the year. I guess the Kentucky Cup Classic, Hawthorne Gold Cup, Washington Park Handicap (all grade 2s) would have made more sense.

Don't bother bringing up forays to Del Mar. Nobody had Candy Ride at the top of their list of top handicap horses (how could they?--no one knew who he was). Guess why Frankel showed up there instead of the Woodward?

Debate it how you want to but that's the truth. If he had to face Congaree a couple of times or Medaglia or Candy Ride, I doubt he comes out with the same kind of record he had.

Yeah, it's too bad Frankel was watching Medaglia D'Oro's weight throughout the year, Congaree would only race around one-turn in NY, Candy Ride only appeared from June to August, and Pleasantly Perfect was waiting for those still in training to burn out come late October.

He did get revenge on Balto Star in the Pimlico Special at least.

And yeah, the Java Gold argument is the same. He only beat Alysheba, Bet Twice, Gulch, Nostalgia's Star, Cryptoclearance, Polish Navy, Broad Brush, Temperate Sil, Cutlass Reality, etc. Save for Ferdinand and Lost Code, he beat just about every other top class dirt horse out there.

Nostalgia's Star? I laughed.

How'd he do in the Triple Crown?

[King Glorious]

Soon as I finish looking up Hold that Tiger's record. Might as well look up Quest's record too and Western Pride and Judge's Case. Those monsters that Mineshaft had to face while the real top horses were facing each other.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

PP's of the top older males from 2003:

http://test.drf.com/eclipse/2003/pps/om.pdf


Perfect Drift was a complete and utter badass that year. His dopey trainer kept running him on turf and talking about how he was going to enter him in the Melbourne Cup.

I remember before Perfect Drift made his 5-year-old debut and all the hanging problems started - he was based at the CD training center. Before his first start that season, Wismer told me he thought something was amiss with him. He gallops horses that he trains and was on the track with him a lot of mornings. He told me not to bet Perfect Drift in his comeback race and said he thought he might miss the board - I basically laughed at him and mocked him for thinking that.

[King Glorious]

Thanks for posting that Drugs. So if my ciphering is correct, here's what I get. Out of those seven horses (Candy Ride, Congaree, Medaglia d'Oro, Milwaukee Brew, Mineshaft, Perfect Drift, Pleasantly Perfect), here's the total number of matchups against the others in that group:

Congaree-8 (in four races, one win)
(Pleasantly Perfect 3x, Milwaukee Brew 2x, Perfect Drift 2x, MDO 1x)

Pleasantly Perfect-7 (in three races, one win)
(Congaree 3x, Milwaukee Brew 2x, MDO 1x, Perfect Drift 1x)

Milwaukee Brew-6 (in three races, one win)
(Congaree 2x, Pleasantly Perfect 2x, Candy Ride 1x, MDO 1x)

Medaglia d'Oro-5 (in two races, no wins)
(Candy Ride, Milwaukee Brew, Pleasantly Perfect, Congaree, Perfect Drift 1x each)

Perfect Drift-5 (in three races, two wins)
(Congaree 2x, MDO 1x, Pleasantly Perfect 1x, Mineshaft 1x)

Candy Ride-2 (in one race, one win)
(MDO, Milwaukee Brew 1x each)

Mineshaft-1 (in one race, no wins)
(Perfect Drift 1x)
___________________

So with the exception of Candy Ride and Mineshaft, each of those other five faced another of the top seven in multiple races. It's pretty easy to see why I said they were facing each other consistently and beating each other. It's not unlike 1997 when Will's Way, Skip Away, and Formal Gold kept facing each other and beating each other up and Favorite Trick snuck in and won HOY. Again, you can't fault a horse for who shows up to face them, especially when they are running in the right races as Mineshaft was. But you also can't excape the reality of the fact that Mineshaft got off easy that year in comparison to what the others were facing on a regular basis.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Thanks for posting that Drugs. So if my ciphering is correct, here's what I get. Out of those seven horses (Candy Ride, Congaree, Medaglia d'Oro, Milwaukee Brew, Mineshaft, Perfect Drift, Pleasantly Perfect), here's the total number of matchups against the others in that group:

Congaree-8 (in four races, one win)
(Pleasantly Perfect 3x, Milwaukee Brew 2x, Perfect Drift 2x, MDO 1x)

Pleasantly Perfect-7 (in three races, one win)
(Congaree 3x, Milwaukee Brew 2x, MDO 1x, Perfect Drift 1x)

Milwaukee Brew-6 (in three races, one win)
(Congaree 2x, Pleasantly Perfect 2x, Candy Ride 1x, MDO 1x)

Medaglia d'Oro-5 (in two races, no wins)
(Candy Ride, Milwaukee Brew, Pleasantly Perfect, Congaree, Perfect Drift 1x each)

Perfect Drift-5 (in three races, two wins)
(Congaree 2x, MDO 1x, Pleasantly Perfect 1x, Mineshaft 1x)

Candy Ride-2 (in one race, one win)
(MDO, Milwaukee Brew 1x each)

Mineshaft-1 (in one race, no wins)
(Perfect Drift 1x)
___________________

So with the exception of Candy Ride and Mineshaft, each of those other five faced another of the top seven in multiple races. It's pretty easy to see why I said they were facing each other consistently and beating each other. It's not unlike 1997 when Will's Way, Skip Away, and Formal Gold kept facing each other and beating each other up and Favorite Trick snuck in and won HOY. Again, you can't fault a horse for who shows up to face them, especially when they are running in the right races as Mineshaft was. But you also can't excape the reality of the fact that Mineshaft got off easy that year in comparison to what the others were facing on a regular basis.

he got off easy? i disagree. i thought he ran a good campaign (especially when you consider other hoy campaigns that have been run the last few years-i think mineshaft started almost as many times in that one year as GZ did in his entire career) and was deserving of hoy. was he the best since bid as has been suggested by another poster here? hell no. if he didn't deserve hoy, who did that year?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But you also can't excape the reality of the fact that Mineshaft got off easy that year in comparison to what the others were facing on a regular basis.

He would have got off a whole lot easier in 2009 ... here are the 3 finalists...

http://www1.drf.com/eclipse/2009/fin...older_male.pdf

In 2008 - Albertus Maximus and Go Between both got votes for champion older male.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

PP's of the top older males from 2003:

http://test.drf.com/eclipse/2003/pps/om.pdf


Perfect Drift was a complete and utter badass that year. His dopey trainer kept running him on turf and talking about how he was going to enter him in the Melbourne Cup.

I remember before Perfect Drift made his 5-year-old debut and all the hanging problems started - he was based at the CD training center. Before his first start that season, Wismer told me he thought something was amiss with him. He gallops horses that he trains and was on the track with him a lot of mornings. He told me not to bet Perfect Drift in his comeback race and said he thought he might miss the board - I basically laughed at him and mocked him for thinking that.

Looks like Mineshaft deserved the HOY..

but Congaree was most likely the best race horse of the group

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Congaree was a truly outstanding horse. He and Medaglia D' Oro were open lengths the best in the Breeders Cup Classic - basically dueling each other all the way for 10 furlongs before Plesantly Perfect came along to mop them both up in the final strides.

Mineshaft ran 7 times with lasix - and ran all 7 figures in the 114-to-118 range. Hard to fault him for what he faced - he started in five Grade 1's - and horses like Western Pride, Hold That Tiger, Volponi, and Olmodavor all could run a lot on their good day .. but no way as classy and consistant as horses like MDO and Congaree - or as brilliant as a Candy Ride.

His one loss with lasix was an extremely high quality loss. He was caught like five wide on both turns - and gave 8lbs away to Perfect Drift and just got nipped after Robbie Al made a pre-mature move.

His running style was perfect - very similar to Cigar's and Curlin's. Mineshaft was always going to run in that 114-to-118 Beyer range no matter the competiton. Would Curlin rate a better horse? I think so .. but when you discount Curlin's 3yo form I don't think that's the case at all. All of that classy stock he gets - and who was Neil Howard 2nd best horse of the decade?