All time best horses

somerfrost · #1 02-06-2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss

What is the basis for Point Given being so much lower on the list than Holy Bull?

Point Given 13/9-3-0 only missed the board once, that in his mysterious effort in the Derby, he was favored to win the TC and most folks believe he was far and away the best that year. Holy Bull 16/13-0-0 was hell on wheels when he got the lead but failed to hit the board 3 times. Point Given's wins in the Preakness, Belmont and Travers put him in rarified air. Holy Bull prevailed in the Travers, Fla Derby and Blue Grass but overall, won less premier races. Holy Bull's 12th in the Derby resulted in him passing the final 2 legs of the TC. His one off the board finish resulted from injury in his final race so can't hold that against him. unfortunate that he couldn't continue his 4yo season, may have been ranked higher with an impressive finish to his career.

DaTruth · #2 02-06-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Point Given 13/9-3-0 only missed the board once, that in his mysterious effort in the Derby, he was favored to win the TC and most folks believe he was far and away the best that year. Holy Bull 16/13-0-0 was hell on wheels when he got the lead but failed to hit the board 3 times. Point Given's wins in the Preakness, Belmont and Travers put him in rarified air. Holy Bull prevailed in the Travers, Fla Derby and Blue Grass but overall, won less premier races. Holy Bull's 12th in the Derby resulted in him passing the final 2 legs of the TC. His one off the board finish resulted from injury in his final race so can't hold that against him. unfortunate that he couldn't continue his 4yo season, may have been ranked higher with an impressive finish to his career.

Holy Bull easily beat Bertrando, Devil His Due, Colonial Affair, and Go For Gin in the Woodward. That trumps anything Point Given did.

Dahoss · #3 02-06-2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Point Given 13/9-3-0 only missed the board once, that in his mysterious effort in the Derby, he was favored to win the TC and most folks believe he was far and away the best that year. Holy Bull 16/13-0-0 was hell on wheels when he got the lead but failed to hit the board 3 times. Point Given's wins in the Preakness, Belmont and Travers put him in rarified air. Holy Bull prevailed in the Travers, Fla Derby and Blue Grass but overall, won less premier races. Holy Bull's 12th in the Derby resulted in him passing the final 2 legs of the TC. His one off the board finish resulted from injury in his final race so can't hold that against him. unfortunate that he couldn't continue his 4yo season, may have been ranked higher with an impressive finish to his career.

Holy Bull won less premier races? He won the Met Mile and Woodward as a 3 year old beating very solid older horses. Point Given never beat older horses. The only real loss you can put on Holy Bull was in the Derby when he never lifted a hoof. He was injured in his final career start in the Donn and flipped his palate in the Fountain of Youth.

You gotta be kidding with this stuff.

somerfrost · #4 02-07-2011, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Holy Bull won less premier races? He won the Met Mile and Woodward as a 3 year old beating very solid older horses. Point Given never beat older horses. The only real loss you can put on Holy Bull was in the Derby when he never lifted a hoof. He was injured in his final career start in the Donn and flipped his palate in the Fountain of Youth.

You gotta be kidding with this stuff.

Agree that Holy Bull beat older horses...again, I put a lot of stock in TC races and Travers, especially if horse wins 2/3 in TC...comes down as I seem to keep repeating to personal opinion. Just fyi, I love the Bull but try to leave personal likes/dislikes out of rating.

Dahoss · #5 02-07-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Agree that Holy Bull beat older horses...again, I put a lot of stock in TC races and Travers, especially if horse wins 2/3 in TC...comes down as I seem to keep repeating to personal opinion. Just fyi, I love the Bull but try to leave personal likes/dislikes out of rating.

Which is fine, but when you stack up what Point Given was beating in those premier races and then compare it to what Holy Bull was beating in the "less premier races", it's not even really close.

I'd rather look at the specific races and see what was actually in them, rather than just looking at the name of the race. But that is my opinion and realize it isn't shared by everyone.

somerfrost · #6 02-07-2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Which is fine, but when you stack up what Point Given was beating in those premier races and then compare it to what Holy Bull was beating in the "less premier races", it's not even really close.

I'd rather look at the specific races and see what was actually in them, rather than just looking at the name of the race. But that is my opinion and realize it isn't shared by everyone.

No, I agree but remember how Point Given won the Preakness, Belmont and Travers...awesome horse denied TC by bad ride.

Dahoss · #7 02-07-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No, I agree but remember how Point Given won the Preakness, Belmont and Travers...awesome horse denied TC by bad ride.

Yes, he dominated bad horses, other than Congaree. You're stuck on the names of the races. We'll just agree to disagree.

Antitrust32 · #8 02-07-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Agree that Holy Bull beat older horses...again, I put a lot of stock in TC races and Travers, especially if horse wins 2/3 in TC...comes down as I seem to keep repeating to personal opinion. Just fyi, I love the Bull but try to leave personal likes/dislikes out of rating.

How did you do this and come up with Zenyatta at 11?

Cannon Shell · #9 02-07-2011, 02:49 PM

The Triple Crown races are easily the most popular and publicized races. But they are generally far from the best races.

somerfrost · #10 02-07-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

How did you do this and come up with Zenyatta at 11?

See my 4:15pm post.

miraja2 · #11 02-07-2011, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Agree that Holy Bull beat older horses...again, I put a lot of stock in TC races and Travers, especially if horse wins 2/3 in TC...comes down as I seem to keep repeating to personal opinion. Just fyi, I love the Bull but try to leave personal likes/dislikes out of rating.

In that case I find your decision to rank Zenyatta well in front of Affirmed even more peculiar.

somerfrost · #12 02-07-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

In that case I find your decision to rank Zenyatta well in front of Affirmed even more peculiar.

I knew that would bring a lot of criticism, again nationwide closers win at about 20% of races entered, that compared to much higher rates for front runners and stalkers, imo only a horse of exceptional quality could complile a record like Zenyatta's running as a dead closer. We can debate quality etc forever...it's a decision I feel comfortable with and so....

Cannon Shell · #13 02-07-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I knew that would bring a lot of criticism, again nationwide closers win at about 20% of races entered, that compared to much higher rates for front runners and stalkers, imo only a horse of exceptional quality could complile a record like Zenyatta's running as a dead closer. We can debate quality etc forever...it's a decision I feel comfortable with and so....

This is really one of the worst arguments that I have ever heard. You treat her style as a handicap when it is simply her style. Her record is what it is because she ran against a bunch of dogs most of the time on tracks that favored her running style. Nationwide stats are not relevant since she was running on unique surfaces 90% of the time.

somerfrost · #14 02-07-2011, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is really one of the worst arguments that I have ever heard. You treat her style as a handicap when it is simply her style. Her record is what it is because she ran against a bunch of dogs most of the time on tracks that favored her running style. Nationwide stats are not relevant since she was running on unique surfaces 90% of the time.

May be the worst argument you ever heard but it's my point, you disagree so I see no value in further debate.

RockHardTen1985 · #15 02-06-2011, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Point Given 13/9-3-0 only missed the board once, that in his mysterious effort in the Derby, he was favored to win the TC and most folks believe he was far and away the best that year. Holy Bull 16/13-0-0 was hell on wheels when he got the lead but failed to hit the board 3 times. Point Given's wins in the Preakness, Belmont and Travers put him in rarified air. Holy Bull prevailed in the Travers, Fla Derby and Blue Grass but overall, won less premier races. Holy Bull's 12th in the Derby resulted in him passing the final 2 legs of the TC. His one off the board finish resulted from injury in his final race so can't hold that against him. unfortunate that he couldn't continue his 4yo season, may have been ranked higher with an impressive finish to his career.

It was not really a mystery. Stevens fu#ked it all up.

somerfrost · #16 02-07-2011, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

It was not really a mystery. Stevens fu#ked it all up.

I was being kind! Agree that jock had horse way to close to blistering pace.

RockHardTen1985 · #17 02-07-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I was being kind! Agree that jock had horse way to close to blistering pace.

Its really a shame, because of all the close ones I think he was most deserving. He won The Preakness for fun and destroyed the Belmont.

somerfrost · #18 02-07-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Its really a shame, because of all the close ones I think he was most deserving. He won The Preakness for fun and destroyed the Belmont.

Yeah, I agree but Smarty Jones and Risen Star would be right there as well. I personally feel that had his connections not been morons, Star would have easily won the TC.