Bernardini

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Even though Bernardini's race record is similar to A. P. Indy's (Bernardini was the better race horse of the two by the way) I have my doubts his offspring tendencies will be similar.. especially with what I've seen from his first crop.

You are, as I'm sure you know, wrong about Indy vs Bernardini. Drysdale wasn't even close to getting to the bottom of his horse.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Bernardini's offspring are looking quicker and a lot better suited to sprinting than A. P. Indy's. He's only had one crop race so far - and the best horses have been To Honor and Serve, A. P. Warrior, Stay Thirsty, and Biondetti ... but you'd think he's already proven himself a great stallion.

AP Indy in his first crop had spectacular first time out winner A P Assay, whom I believe broke her maiden going 4.5f in track record time at HP. In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

You probably would have been saying the same thing about Indy back then as what you are saying now about Bernardini.

By the way, I'm pretty sure AP Warrior was by AP Indy. I'm guessing you meant AZ.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

You are, as I'm sure you know, wrong about Indy vs Bernardini. Drysdale wasn't even close to getting to the bottom of his horse.




AP Indy in his first crop had spectacular first time out winner A P Assay, whom I believe broke her maiden going 4.5f in track record time at HP. In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

You probably would have been saying the same thing about Indy back then as what you are saying now about Bernardini.

By the way, I'm pretty sure AP Warrior was by AP Indy. I'm guessing you meant AZ.

AP Assay was a very good filly, but unsound if I recall.......and you're right about Old Trieste. What a shame he died early. I see a lot on the boards about Indy siring only plodders ..if so, he's made a hell of a nice career out of it.

Bernardini was supremely talented - and he gets knocked for finishing 2nd as 3 year old to a great older horse. I can't say he was for sure better than Indy, but it's possible....

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Betsy

AP Assay was a very good filly, but unsound if I recall.......and you're right about Old Trieste. What a shame he died early. I see a lot on the boards about Indy siring only plodders ..if so, he's made a hell of a nice career out of it.

Bernardini was supremely talented - and he gets knocked for finishing 2nd as 3 year old to a great older horse. I can't say he was for sure better than Indy, but it's possible....

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

Perhaps they were just relatively speaking to what else was running at the time.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Perhaps they were just relatively speaking to what else was running at the time.

Yeah, well, no doubt he was much superior to what was left of the 3yos, but heck, he still lost to Invasor.

Also, people were elevating him to all time great status. Heck, one dork on DT recently even went so far as saying he was a better racehorse than his sire!

Seriously.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Heck, one dork on DT recently even went so far as saying he was a better racehorse than his sire!

Yes - A. P. Indy was "a better race horse" because Drysdale "never got to the bottom of him"

Perhaps A. P. Indy was improving and would have been a better older horse - but anyone who rates him better than Bernardini as a racehorse - based on the record - is clueless.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes - A. P. Indy was "a better race horse" because Drysdale "never got to the bottom of him"

Perhaps A. P. Indy was improving and would have been a better older horse - but anyone who rates him better than Bernardini as a racehorse - based on the record - is clueless.

Likewise, anyone who relies solely on numbers is as well.

As you know already, there is more to my belief Indy was a better runner than Bernardini than just that one little quip I mentioned.

Based on the record? Indy was a grade 1 winner at 2, despite being far from having reached his full potential. He beat a very good horse in the SA Derby (Bertrando) that was probably much better than anything Bernardini beat.

He won the Belmont. His loss in his final start before the BCC (I believe it was the JCGC) was light years better than anything Bernardini ever showed, and oh yeah, he won the BCC over a much better field than what Bernardini faced.

Granted, one loss does not define a career or a horse, but Bernardini did fire and had no excuses when he lost to what was basically a deluxe version of Musket Man.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

I adored Bernardini and just thought he was a tremendous horse. He didn't get a chance to prove his greatness as a 4 year old, which stinks. Maybe Invasor wasn't "great", but I see people knocking his race to this very good older horse as proof that Bernardini was not very good and that makes no sense. I think it's possible to think a horse is very good and very talented without thinking he's the greatest thing ever. Bernadini did have exceptional talent, but thanks to the Sheikh, we'll never know what he could have done as he improved as an older horse. I also think it's unfair to knock him because Barbaro broke down in the Preakness. Bernardini ran great that day - who's to say he wouldn't have won anyway? That would have been a very nice rivalry - too bad it didn't happen.

No one loves Indy more than I do, but yes - I absolutely think Bernardini could have beaten him.

[Indian Charlie]

At the time of their respective retirements, I think there was still quite a bit more upside to Indy than Bernardini.

The thing with Indy, his Canadian race notwithstanding, he was still improving with every start. I, and many others back then, thought he was going to keep getting better had he raced more.

I can't say the same for Bernardini.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

At the time of their respective retirements, I think there was still quite a bit more upside to Indy than Bernardini.

The thing with Indy, his Canadian race notwithstanding, he was still improving with every start. I, and many others back then, thought he was going to keep getting better had he raced more.

I can't say the same for Bernardini.

You didn't think Bernardini was capable of improving even off his excellent 3 year old form? I guess we'll never know, but I thought he had a lot more that we never got to see. All I do know is that I have never been as crushed as I was when Indy was scratched on Derby eve........what a punch in the gut that was. It was sweet vindication when he won the BC. He won that race so easily.I hoped he'd run as a 4 year old, but I didn't think that was ever a real possibility. I was just glad that his owner was not into breeding because if he was, Indy would be in Japan now. It's been a long time - maybe I'm underrating how good he was as a racehorse because he's been so good as a sire. It's a shame that he probably won't ever sire a KY Derby winner, but maybe one of his sons will.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

Old Trieste performed poorly sprinting.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Old Trieste performed poorly sprinting.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was probably more due to him improving with racing than him not being able to sprint.

You'd have to be completely out of your mind to think he wouldn't have been an upper echelon sprinter later in his career.