Cliff Lee

slotdirt · #1 12-14-2010, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

so yes... on paper I'll take my top 4 over the top 4 from any of the Braves 90's years. Cant comment on the 70 O's or 20 Yankees. There are probably better rotations out there. Ours, on paper right now, is the best in modern times.... if you look at the top 4. Obviously Kendrick or Vance Worley are kinda the 5th wheel.

P.S. - you're legitimately crazy if you'd take Lee, Halladay, and Oswalt/Hamels over Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux. Or a homer. Your choice.

Antitrust32 · #2 12-14-2010, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

P.S. - you're legitimately crazy if you'd take Lee, Halladay, and Oswalt/Hamels over Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux. Or a homer. Your choice.

3 all stars compared to 4 all stars?

and its not Oswalt/Hamels. its Oswalt AND Hamels.

Maddux is slightly better than Halladay, but not by much at all.

Glavine and Lee match up very very well

as well as Oswalt and Smoltx careers.

Hamels is better than any #4 the braves had... and that is what makes this rotation top the braves.

horseofcourse · #3 12-14-2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

3 all stars compared to 4 all stars?

and its not Oswalt/Hamels. its Oswalt AND Hamels.

Maddux is slightly better than Halladay, but not by much at all.

Glavine and Lee match up very very well

as well as Oswalt and Smoltx careers.

Hamels is better than any #4 the braves had... and that is what makes this rotation top the braves.

AT their best you can compare the Phils current rotation to the Braves top 4. But career wise they aren't close at this point. Not even close. Maddux 355 wins, Glavine 305 wins, Smoltz 213 wins, 154 saves. And from 1991 to 1994 Steve Avery was 55-28. He didn't last long, but for 4 years he was great. He was also 5-3 in post season with an ERA under 3. Hamels last 4 years are 51-37 with 6-4 in post season 3.45 ERA. Avery's run of 4 good years top Hamels' last 4. The funny thing about history is people tend to forget it.

slotdirt · #4 12-14-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

AT their best you can compare the Phils current rotation to the Braves top 3. But career wise they aren't close at this point. Not even close. Maddux 355 wins, Glavine 305 wins, Smoltz 213 wins, 154 saves.

Ed Zachary. Those are three of maybe the top 5-10 pitchers in all of baseball over the last 20 years. I don't think the current Phillies rotation can make that claim save Roy Halladay.

Antitrust32 · #5 12-14-2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Ed Zachary. Those are three of maybe the top 5-10 pitchers in all of baseball over the last 20 years. I don't think the current Phillies rotation can make that claim save Roy Halladay.

We have the #1 and #2 rated pitchers in baseball. 4 out of the top 21 starters in baseball. In their prime also!

All I smell around here is jealousy. Thats fine though, I understand.

MaTH716 · #6 12-14-2010, 10:32 AM

Honestly, who gives a s.hit where they fall as far as history goes. It only thing that matters is how many rings they are able to win. Look at that Braves staff, as good as they were they only ended up with one ring.

randallscott35 · #7 12-14-2010, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Honestly, who gives a s.hit where they fall as far as history goes. It only thing that matters is how many rings they are able to win. Look at that Braves staff, as good as they were they only ended up with one ring.

slotdirt · #8 12-14-2010, 10:36 AM

Jealousy? WHo's jealous? I just think it's silly to say they have the best rotation ever before they've even thrown a pitch in the 2011 season. Moreover, by no empirical evidence whatsoever could one say that this is close to the best rotation ever. And if you think Roy Oswalt has another 5-7 years left in him, I have a some farmland in Manhattan to sell you.

horseofcourse · #9 12-14-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Honestly, who gives a s.hit where they fall as far as history goes. It only thing that matters is how many rings they are able to win. Look at that Braves staff, as good as they were they only ended up with one ring.

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgarner have more rings than Halladay, Oswalt, and Lee. Infinitely more. Thanks for making my point. So you are admitting the Giants as they stand have a better rotation currently. And you're stating Hamels is the Phils top starter simply because he has a "ring". The "rings" argument is always pretty silly I think.

Antitrust32 · #10 12-14-2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Honestly, who gives a s.hit where they fall as far as history goes. It only thing that matters is how many rings they are able to win. Look at that Braves staff, as good as they were they only ended up with one ring.

We already have 1 for our run so far.. and you are completely correct. the ring is all that matters. lets add more to the 1 we have!

baseball america scout said the phillies have the best young talent in their farm system compared to the rest of baseball (young talent - guys who are a few years away)

We have an infield that consists of Ryan Howard, Utley, Rollins.. and the most consistent of the group.. Polanco. We have a catcher who is the freaking man. Outfield will be interesting.

I'll take the Phillies roster and try for those rings.

horseofcourse · #11 12-14-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

We have the #1 and #2 rated pitchers in baseball. 4 out of the top 21 starters in baseball. In their prime also!

All I smell around here is jealousy. Thats fine though, I understand.

We'll see how Bumgarner develops. I'm not convinced the current Phils 4 is better than the Giants 4 at this current moment. Last I checked, the Phils top 3 got outpitched by the Giants in post season and Lincecum beat Lee twice when it counted when Lee was considered a post season lock. You can debate the two rotations right now as they stand.

Antitrust32 · #12 12-14-2010, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

AT their best you can compare the Phils current rotation to the Braves top 4. But career wise they aren't close at this point. Not even close. Maddux 355 wins, Glavine 305 wins, Smoltz 213 wins, 154 saves. And from 1991 to 1994 Steve Avery was 55-28. He didn't last long, but for 4 years he was great. He was also 5-3 in post season with an ERA under 3. Hamels last 4 years are 51-37 with 6-4 in post season 3.45 ERA. Avery's run of 4 good years top Hamels' last 4. The funny thing about history is people tend to forget it.

lets compare career stats to men who are in the middle of their prime and have 5-7 years left in their career!

Hamels was miserable in 2009. that will do a funny thing to your stats. I'd take Hamels any day of the year over Steve Avery. Plus he's still a 26 year old kid! With a WS MVP!

funny thing you guys comparing career stats to people in the midst of their prime.