Privman: Let the Horse of the Year Debate Begin

[prudery]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

So Zenyatta's camp are the only ones allowed to try to persuade voters then.



He may not have written the headline, but he took the angle that there is equal validity to both sides of the HOY 'debate' when there isn't. Ask any trainer other than John Shirreffs and they'll tell you who the winner is. Same thing with any owner outside of the Mosses. He also writes in the article 'There would be no debate had Zenyatta gotten up in the Classic.' So if a head makes that much difference in one direction, how come it doesn't in the other direction? The ESPN guys were smart enough to say after the race on Saturday that Blame should and will be HOY. Privman won't go that far for some reason.



Enough. Are you really one of the people who thinks it should be for the best horse and not the most accomplished? Uncle Mo and Zenyatta are both great, but both of their ontrack accomplishments are dwarfed by Blame's this year.

Are you really one of those people who have to inflate the accomplishments of a horse to inflate your point ??

No ones accomplishments actually dwarfed anyone else's before the BCC or after . Blame would have had to do a lot more than he did this year to dwarf anyone including Zenyatta, considering the complexion of the BCC, and I would say the same if the finish were reversed and her head had been in front .

Nobody was dwarfing any of OUR lot this year ...

More appropriate would have been to say that Blame 's accomplishments in your opinion exceeded both Zenyatta's and Uncle' Mo's by virtue of---list your facts .

"Dwarfed " is a rather bloated analysis--who are you trying to convince ???

As there is NO precise mandate as to what constitutes HOY as yet, it needn't be met with incredulity when someone might take another view within the better horse vs the most accomplished debacle---or the thought that there might be a combination of both, not either or.

All that is subjective in itself as well.

And are you truly calling Uncle Mo great after three races to date ???

Or was that just a convenient superlative ...

[ateamstupid]

For the love of fucl<. Schaefer, Foster, Whitney, BCC, 2nd in JCGC > Santa Margarita, Apple Blossom, Vanity, Clement L. Hirsch, Lady's Secret, 2nd in BCC. By a wide margin. It takes a lot of skill to write 9 paragraphs and not come up with one counter argument to the sentence you're disputing.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Enough. Are you really one of the people who thinks it should be for the best horse and not the most accomplished? Uncle Mo and Zenyatta are both great, but both of their ontrack accomplishments are dwarfed by Blame's this year.

Let's look at what Blame accomplished this year ... in his punishing five race season ...

* After a lengthy freshening - Blame makes his 2010 debut in the Grade 3Schaffer at Pimlico. Talk about a SOFT win and stressless comeback ... No Advantage was 2nd .. the late Timber Reserve was 3rd.



This race was a glorified public workout for Blame.

* Blame makes 2010 start #2 in the Grade 1 Stephen Foster.

Battle Plan appears home free as the favorite - but suddenly starts struggling with his action inside the 1/16th pole and is caught by Blame. General Quarters and Giant Oak 3rd and 4th. The final time is slower than Rachel Alexandra's super impressive 9f win by a double digit length margin on the undercard that day.

Battle Plan is retired with an injury the very next day.



* Blame makes 2010 start #3 in the Whitney. This was the toughest field assembled all year for a horse race in America leading into the Breeders Cup Classic.

Blame beats Quality Road, Musket Man, and Haynesfield - and does it without any pace help at all.

However, Quality Road's performance wasn't up to par for him - and it was the start of a sharp downward spiral.

Musket Man was a troubled 3rd - the race obviously took a lot out of him. He missed his return engagement - and was desperately rushed into a start in the Monmouth Stakes off of just a single workout - a race in which he lost to Etched and fitness clearly his undoing as he appeared to have Etched clearly beaten on the turn.

Haynesfield broke through the starting gate that day - and was not himself.


* Blame makes start #4 in the Jockey Club Gold Cup - no serious pace pressure for Haynesfield - and Haynesfield sets a very legit but unpressured pace and absolutely toys with Blame and Fly Down. Blame's lack of tactical speed is finally exposed.


* Blame beats Zenyatta by a slim margin in the Breeders Cup Classic. It was one of the all-time lowest rated BC Classic's in terms of figures. In victory, I believe Blame even failed to demenstate that he is a better dirt horse than Zenyatta.

I realize Blame was closer to a faster and collapsing pace - but Zenyatta was being ridden harder early. I think it's wrong to assume the fast pace benefitted her more than Blame.


I admire the campaign of Blind Luck - I understand the campaign of Zenyatta (trying to nurse a perfect record) - I HATE the campaign of Blame. Pure chicken sh!t.

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

When you hate Blame's 2010 campaign as much as I do - if I'm going to award him Horse of the Year - the silver lining should come in his performances on the race track ... and those five performances were simply not good enough for me... and there was nothing special about a single one of them.

I have no problem with Blame winning, but personally - I wouldn't vote for him.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Let's look at what Blame accomplished this year ... in his punishing five race season ...

* After a lengthy freshening - Blame makes his 2010 debut in the Grade 3Schaffer at Pimlico. Talk about a SOFT win and stressless comeback ... No Advantage was 2nd .. the late Timber Reserve was 3rd.



This race was a glorified public workout for Blame.

* Blame makes 2010 start #2 in the Grade 1 Stephen Foster.

Battle Plan appears home free as the favorite - but suddenly starts struggling with his action inside the 1/16th pole and is caught by Blame. General Quarters and Giant Oak 3rd and 4th. The final time is slower than Rachel Alexandra's super impressive 9f win by a double digit length margin on the undercard that day.

Battle Plan is retired with an injury the very next day.



* Blame makes 2010 start #3 in the Whitney. This was the toughest field assembled all year for a horse race in America leading into the Breeders Cup Classic.

Blame beats Quality Road, Musket Man, and Haynesfield - and does it without any pace help at all.

However, Quality Road's performance wasn't up to par for him - and it was the start of a sharp downward spiral.

Musket Man was a troubled 3rd - the race obviously took a lot out of him. He missed his return engagement - and was desperately rushed into a start in the Monmouth Stakes off of just a single workout - a race in which he lost to Etched and fitness clearly his undoing as he appeared to have Etched clearly beaten on the turn.

Haynesfield broke through the starting gate that day - and was not himself.


* Blame makes start #4 in the Jockey Club Gold Cup - no serious pace pressure for Haynesfield - and Haynesfield sets a very legit but unpressured pace and absolutely toys with Blame and Fly Down. Blame's lack of tactical speed is finally exposed.


* Blame beats Zenyatta by a slim margin in the Breeders Cup Classic. It was one of the all-time lowest rated BC Classic's in terms of figures. In victory, I believe Blame even failed to demenstate that he is a better dirt horse than Zenyatta.

I realize Blame was closer to a faster and collapsing pace - but Zenyatta was being ridden harder early. I think it's wrong to assume the fast pace benefitted her more than Blame.


I admire the campaign of Blind Luck - I understand the campaign of Zenyatta (trying to nurse a perfect record) - I HATE the campaign of Blame. Pure chicken sh!t.

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

When you hate Blame's 2010 campaign as much as I do - if I'm going to award him Horse of the Year - the silver lining should come in his performances on the race track ... and those five performances were simply not good enough for me... and there was nothing special about a single one of them.

I have no problem with Blame winning, but personally - I wouldn't vote for him.

That was a really good summary of why even accomplishments vis a vis what a horse did on the track are subjective as well.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Let's look at what Blame accomplished this year ... in his punishing five race season ...

* After a lengthy freshening - Blame makes his 2010 debut in the Grade 3Schaffer at Pimlico. Talk about a SOFT win and stressless comeback ... No Advantage was 2nd .. the late Timber Reserve was 3rd.



This race was a glorified public workout for Blame.

* Blame makes 2010 start #2 in the Grade 1 Stephen Foster.

Battle Plan appears home free as the favorite - but suddenly starts struggling with his action inside the 1/16th pole and is caught by Blame. General Quarters and Giant Oak 3rd and 4th. The final time is slower than Rachel Alexandra's super impressive 9f win by a double digit length margin on the undercard that day.

Battle Plan is retired with an injury the very next day.



* Blame makes 2010 start #3 in the Whitney. This was the toughest field assembled all year for a horse race in America leading into the Breeders Cup Classic.

Blame beats Quality Road, Musket Man, and Haynesfield - and does it without any pace help at all.

However, Quality Road's performance wasn't up to par for him - and it was the start of a sharp downward spiral.

Musket Man was a troubled 3rd - the race obviously took a lot out of him. He missed his return engagement - and was desperately rushed into a start in the Monmouth Stakes off of just a single workout - a race in which he lost to Etched and fitness clearly his undoing as he appeared to have Etched clearly beaten on the turn.

Haynesfield broke through the starting gate that day - and was not himself.


* Blame makes start #4 in the Jockey Club Gold Cup - no serious pace pressure for Haynesfield - and Haynesfield sets a very legit but unpressured pace and absolutely toys with Blame and Fly Down. Blame's lack of tactical speed is finally exposed.


* Blame beats Zenyatta by a slim margin in the Breeders Cup Classic. It was one of the all-time lowest rated BC Classic's in terms of figures. In victory, I believe Blame even failed to demenstate that he is a better dirt horse than Zenyatta.

I realize Blame was closer to a faster and collapsing pace - but Zenyatta was being ridden harder early. I think it's wrong to assume the fast pace benefitted her more than Blame.


I admire the campaign of Blind Luck - I understand the campaign of Zenyatta (trying to nurse a perfect record) - I HATE the campaign of Blame. Pure chicken sh!t.

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

When you hate Blame's 2010 campaign as much as I do - if I'm going to award him Horse of the Year - the silver lining should come in his performances on the race track ... and those five performances were simply not good enough for me... and there was nothing special about a single one of them.

I have no problem with Blame winning, but personally - I wouldn't vote for him.

This is well thought out and argued, originally I was leaning towards Blame, but now I am not so sure.

Edit - On second thought I think Blame should get it, but it's close.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

Yeah. You know, I'd have less problem with pre-steriod Barry Bonds if he'd just have hit as many home runs as post-steriod BB did. But he wasn't that kind of slugger though.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

I'm not sure if this will change your mind at all but someone down there this week called me and told me that Blame had some serious quarter cracks, after further investigation, he had them for a while and while it wasn't bothersome, one has to think if they ran him more, those could have become more of an issue.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Ask any trainer other than John Shirreffs and they'll tell you who the winner is. Same thing with any owner outside of the Mosses.

Much to my surprise, and despite saying if Blame, Zenyatta, Quality Road, or Lookin At Lucky are HOTY if they win the Classic, Baffert said he'd pick Zenyatta.

We're all in mad love with that mare, but c'mon, Blame earned that. It's not Zenyatta's fault, it's not Mike Smith's fault. She's just as amazing whether she won it or not, but the horse that finished in front of her had a legitimate stake in HOTY going in. The Mosses could've gotten that for her, but it's all the eggs in one basket approach that backfired. As the Mig said, it's not just that dirt hit her in the face, it's that the speed of it was that much harder since there were a lot of horses and some were much faster than the fields from before. They took a risk, and it almost worked, but you gotta give credit where it's due. He gets it.

Someone made a Tara Lipinski/Michelle Kwan comparison with Blame and Zenyatta. As a Kwan fan, it's actually one that makes sense to me, but I have to point out that Michelle being the total package and one of our finest American athletes ever doesn't mean she gets the gold medal if that particular set of performances doesn't beat Tara's on the scoreboard. It's bad luck, someone else had the better day, peaked at the right time, and got the prize.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Blame's campaign was also too weak and chicken sh!t. His campaign actually made Zenyatta's appear somewhat brave.

I disagree that his campaign was cowardly, at least by current standards. He raced in most of the major East Coast dirt stakes in the second half of the year for older horses. Other than the Met Mile and the Woodward, where else did you expect him to show up during the second half of the year? If you don't want to race your older dirt male on synthetics, your early season options are pretty much limited to the Donn, Oaklawn Handicap, and New Orleans Handicap. Blame's year was no less adventurous than Ghostzapper's Tom Fool-Iselin-Woodward leadup to the 2004 Classic.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I believe that Zenyatta will win the Horse-of-the-Year Eclipse Award because voters have intellectual cover -- even if it is superficial -- following the Classic finish.

I would not vote that way, but that is how I see it happening.

I will give you 10/1 for all the money you want.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I will give you 10/1 for all the money you want.

I'll take 10-1.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I will give you 10/1 for all the money you want.

You're nuts.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You're nuts.

This is not even close, what there are 240 votes.........its going to be like 150-90 with Blame winning for fun.