Privman: Let the Horse of the Year Debate Begin

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by justindew

I'd vote for Blame first, then Glodikova, then Uncle Mo, then Zenyatta. I think Blame will win, but Team Blame probably ought to cut back on the "we are Horse of the Year....she had her chance" stuff. I think it's gonna rub some voters the wrong way.

Who the hell will get Champion Turf Male?

So Zenyatta's camp are the only ones allowed to try to persuade voters then.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

First of all, and this has come up fairly often, the author does not write the headline. Secondly, what is the problem with Jay's article? It wasn't biased. It presented the story.

This whole thing has become beyond boorish, but Jay had a job to do, and I fail to see how he did it poorly. He didn't take sides.

He may not have written the headline, but he took the angle that there is equal validity to both sides of the HOY 'debate' when there isn't. Ask any trainer other than John Shirreffs and they'll tell you who the winner is. Same thing with any owner outside of the Mosses. He also writes in the article 'There would be no debate had Zenyatta gotten up in the Classic.' So if a head makes that much difference in one direction, how come it doesn't in the other direction? The ESPN guys were smart enough to say after the race on Saturday that Blame should and will be HOY. Privman won't go that far for some reason.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

To say there isn't at least a debate for HOY is silly.

Personally, if I had a vote, I would not vote for Blame.

I would be seriously conflicted between Zenyatta and Uncle Mo.

Enough. Are you really one of the people who thinks it should be for the best horse and not the most accomplished? Uncle Mo and Zenyatta are both great, but both of their ontrack accomplishments are dwarfed by Blame's this year.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

So Zenyatta's camp are the only ones allowed to try to persuade voters then.



He may not have written the headline, but he took the angle that there is equal validity to both sides of the HOY 'debate' when there isn't. Ask any trainer other than John Shirreffs and they'll tell you who the winner is. Same thing with any owner outside of the Mosses. He also writes in the article 'There would be no debate had Zenyatta gotten up in the Classic.' So if a head makes that much difference in one direction, how come it doesn't in the other direction? The ESPN guys were smart enough to say after the race on Saturday that Blame should and will be HOY. Privman won't go that far for some reason.



Enough. Are you really one of the people who thinks it should be for the best horse and not the most accomplished? Uncle Mo and Zenyatta are both great, but both of their ontrack accomplishments are dwarfed by Blame's this year.

Are you really one of those people who have to inflate the accomplishments of a horse to inflate your point ??

No ones accomplishments actually dwarfed anyone else's before the BCC or after . Blame would have had to do a lot more than he did this year to dwarf anyone including Zenyatta, considering the complexion of the BCC, and I would say the same if the finish were reversed and her head had been in front .

Nobody was dwarfing any of OUR lot this year ...

More appropriate would have been to say that Blame 's accomplishments in your opinion exceeded both Zenyatta's and Uncle' Mo's by virtue of---list your facts .

"Dwarfed " is a rather bloated analysis--who are you trying to convince ???

As there is NO precise mandate as to what constitutes HOY as yet, it needn't be met with incredulity when someone might take another view within the better horse vs the most accomplished debacle---or the thought that there might be a combination of both, not either or.

All that is subjective in itself as well.

And are you truly calling Uncle Mo great after three races to date ???

Or was that just a convenient superlative ...

[ateamstupid]

For the love of fucl<. Schaefer, Foster, Whitney, BCC, 2nd in JCGC > Santa Margarita, Apple Blossom, Vanity, Clement L. Hirsch, Lady's Secret, 2nd in BCC. By a wide margin. It takes a lot of skill to write 9 paragraphs and not come up with one counter argument to the sentence you're disputing.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

For the love of fucl<. Schaefer, Foster, Whitney, BCC, 2nd in JCGC > Santa Margarita, Apple Blossom, Vanity, Clement L. Hirsch, Lady's Secret, 2nd in BCC. By a wide margin. It takes a lot of skill to write 9 paragraphs and not come up with one counter argument to the sentence you're disputing.

You either didn't read or get what I wrote-I wrote " state your facts " because I was too lazy to type them out--I already know them .I have the stats.

You are speaking of something I was not--I was discussing the word " dwarfed " I was not requesting proof of accomplishments at all.

You sir, are off course .

I am aware of who won what-- I am not aware that any such lists are facts of " dwarfing " .

Is that clear ???

[ateamstupid]

When you have no argument, you turn to semantics. I get it.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

When you have no argument, you turn to semantics. I get it.

No you don't get it but Drugs did a better job than I did to get the point across .

And BTW, I wasn't arguing --y tu ???

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by prudery

No you don't get it but Drugs did a better job than I did to get the point across .

There's a stunner.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Enough. Are you really one of the people who thinks it should be for the best horse and not the most accomplished? Uncle Mo and Zenyatta are both great, but both of their ontrack accomplishments are dwarfed by Blame's this year.

Let's look at what Blame accomplished this year ... in his punishing five race season ...

* After a lengthy freshening - Blame makes his 2010 debut in the Grade 3Schaffer at Pimlico. Talk about a SOFT win and stressless comeback ... No Advantage was 2nd .. the late Timber Reserve was 3rd.



This race was a glorified public workout for Blame.

* Blame makes 2010 start #2 in the Grade 1 Stephen Foster.

Battle Plan appears home free as the favorite - but suddenly starts struggling with his action inside the 1/16th pole and is caught by Blame. General Quarters and Giant Oak 3rd and 4th. The final time is slower than Rachel Alexandra's super impressive 9f win by a double digit length margin on the undercard that day.

Battle Plan is retired with an injury the very next day.



* Blame makes 2010 start #3 in the Whitney. This was the toughest field assembled all year for a horse race in America leading into the Breeders Cup Classic.

Blame beats Quality Road, Musket Man, and Haynesfield - and does it without any pace help at all.

However, Quality Road's performance wasn't up to par for him - and it was the start of a sharp downward spiral.

Musket Man was a troubled 3rd - the race obviously took a lot out of him. He missed his return engagement - and was desperately rushed into a start in the Monmouth Stakes off of just a single workout - a race in which he lost to Etched and fitness clearly his undoing as he appeared to have Etched clearly beaten on the turn.

Haynesfield broke through the starting gate that day - and was not himself.


* Blame makes start #4 in the Jockey Club Gold Cup - no serious pace pressure for Haynesfield - and Haynesfield sets a very legit but unpressured pace and absolutely toys with Blame and Fly Down. Blame's lack of tactical speed is finally exposed.


* Blame beats Zenyatta by a slim margin in the Breeders Cup Classic. It was one of the all-time lowest rated BC Classic's in terms of figures. In victory, I believe Blame even failed to demenstate that he is a better dirt horse than Zenyatta.

I realize Blame was closer to a faster and collapsing pace - but Zenyatta was being ridden harder early. I think it's wrong to assume the fast pace benefitted her more than Blame.


I admire the campaign of Blind Luck - I understand the campaign of Zenyatta (trying to nurse a perfect record) - I HATE the campaign of Blame. Pure chicken sh!t.

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

When you hate Blame's 2010 campaign as much as I do - if I'm going to award him Horse of the Year - the silver lining should come in his performances on the race track ... and those five performances were simply not good enough for me... and there was nothing special about a single one of them.

I have no problem with Blame winning, but personally - I wouldn't vote for him.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Let's look at what Blame accomplished this year ... in his punishing five race season ...

* After a lengthy freshening - Blame makes his 2010 debut in the Grade 3Schaffer at Pimlico. Talk about a SOFT win and stressless comeback ... No Advantage was 2nd .. the late Timber Reserve was 3rd.



This race was a glorified public workout for Blame.

* Blame makes 2010 start #2 in the Grade 1 Stephen Foster.

Battle Plan appears home free as the favorite - but suddenly starts struggling with his action inside the 1/16th pole and is caught by Blame. General Quarters and Giant Oak 3rd and 4th. The final time is slower than Rachel Alexandra's super impressive 9f win by a double digit length margin on the undercard that day.

Battle Plan is retired with an injury the very next day.



* Blame makes 2010 start #3 in the Whitney. This was the toughest field assembled all year for a horse race in America leading into the Breeders Cup Classic.

Blame beats Quality Road, Musket Man, and Haynesfield - and does it without any pace help at all.

However, Quality Road's performance wasn't up to par for him - and it was the start of a sharp downward spiral.

Musket Man was a troubled 3rd - the race obviously took a lot out of him. He missed his return engagement - and was desperately rushed into a start in the Monmouth Stakes off of just a single workout - a race in which he lost to Etched and fitness clearly his undoing as he appeared to have Etched clearly beaten on the turn.

Haynesfield broke through the starting gate that day - and was not himself.


* Blame makes start #4 in the Jockey Club Gold Cup - no serious pace pressure for Haynesfield - and Haynesfield sets a very legit but unpressured pace and absolutely toys with Blame and Fly Down. Blame's lack of tactical speed is finally exposed.


* Blame beats Zenyatta by a slim margin in the Breeders Cup Classic. It was one of the all-time lowest rated BC Classic's in terms of figures. In victory, I believe Blame even failed to demenstate that he is a better dirt horse than Zenyatta.

I realize Blame was closer to a faster and collapsing pace - but Zenyatta was being ridden harder early. I think it's wrong to assume the fast pace benefitted her more than Blame.


I admire the campaign of Blind Luck - I understand the campaign of Zenyatta (trying to nurse a perfect record) - I HATE the campaign of Blame. Pure chicken sh!t.

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

When you hate Blame's 2010 campaign as much as I do - if I'm going to award him Horse of the Year - the silver lining should come in his performances on the race track ... and those five performances were simply not good enough for me... and there was nothing special about a single one of them.

I have no problem with Blame winning, but personally - I wouldn't vote for him.

That was a really good summary of why even accomplishments vis a vis what a horse did on the track are subjective as well.

[Dahoss]

If Blame's campaign was chickensh.it, what was Zenyatta's?

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

If Blame's campaign was chickensh.it, what was Zenyatta's?

Chickensh*t too--till the last one .

Everbody's was , is what I was saying--hence no dawrfing .

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by prudery

Chickensh*t too--till the last one .

Everbody's was , is what I was saying--hence no dawrfing .

The difference is, history has shown that in order for a female to win HOY, they need to either defeat males or be really dominating and have there be no standout male during the year.

I'm not saying that is right, but that is how it has been for decades. If both of their campaigns sucked, which I'm not even sure I agree with, then the deciding factor should be head to head. I know it was a head, but Blame beat Zenyatta.

He defeated better horses and won the head to head matchup.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The difference is, history has shown that in order for a female to win HOY, they need to either defeat males or be really dominating and have there be no standout male during the year.

I'm not saying that is right, but that is how it has been for decades. If both of their campaigns sucked, which I'm not even sure I agree with, then the deciding factor should be head to head. I know it was a head, but Blame beat Zenyatta.

He defeated better horses and won the head to head matchup.

But Z kicked Blames ASS all over the dance floor.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The difference is, history has shown that in order for a female to win HOY, they need to either defeat males or be really dominating and have there be no standout male during the year.

I'm not saying that is right, but that is how it has been for decades. If both of their campaigns sucked, which I'm not even sure I agree with, then the deciding factor should be head to head. I know it was a head, but Blame beat Zenyatta.

He defeated better horses and won the head to head matchup.

I agree about history, but I may agree that Blame was standout. or dwarfed his competition .

I really get that he won, but I really do feel she ran a better race.

As for the males vs females in the HOY choices, of course Azeri got it ibecause there was no stickout male, and Busher got it on her own.

Historically--if you have been around as long as I have , one could say both campaigns and QRs sucked because they were infrequent and spaced and carefully selected--but I didn't say they sucked .

This is what we get these days, and it does make it a little difficult with less information and actual seeing these guys on track with these programs.

In the old days, you truly got a better pictures of who was who because we saw them more, they raced more, and they did take more risks .

Even so, HOY decsions were not always universally approved either .

I still don't know what those rules are for HOY, and that was my main b*tch .

Thank you for your civility ..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Let's look at what Blame accomplished this year ... in his punishing five race season ...

* After a lengthy freshening - Blame makes his 2010 debut in the Grade 3Schaffer at Pimlico. Talk about a SOFT win and stressless comeback ... No Advantage was 2nd .. the late Timber Reserve was 3rd.



This race was a glorified public workout for Blame.

* Blame makes 2010 start #2 in the Grade 1 Stephen Foster.

Battle Plan appears home free as the favorite - but suddenly starts struggling with his action inside the 1/16th pole and is caught by Blame. General Quarters and Giant Oak 3rd and 4th. The final time is slower than Rachel Alexandra's super impressive 9f win by a double digit length margin on the undercard that day.

Battle Plan is retired with an injury the very next day.



* Blame makes 2010 start #3 in the Whitney. This was the toughest field assembled all year for a horse race in America leading into the Breeders Cup Classic.

Blame beats Quality Road, Musket Man, and Haynesfield - and does it without any pace help at all.

However, Quality Road's performance wasn't up to par for him - and it was the start of a sharp downward spiral.

Musket Man was a troubled 3rd - the race obviously took a lot out of him. He missed his return engagement - and was desperately rushed into a start in the Monmouth Stakes off of just a single workout - a race in which he lost to Etched and fitness clearly his undoing as he appeared to have Etched clearly beaten on the turn.

Haynesfield broke through the starting gate that day - and was not himself.


* Blame makes start #4 in the Jockey Club Gold Cup - no serious pace pressure for Haynesfield - and Haynesfield sets a very legit but unpressured pace and absolutely toys with Blame and Fly Down. Blame's lack of tactical speed is finally exposed.


* Blame beats Zenyatta by a slim margin in the Breeders Cup Classic. It was one of the all-time lowest rated BC Classic's in terms of figures. In victory, I believe Blame even failed to demenstate that he is a better dirt horse than Zenyatta.

I realize Blame was closer to a faster and collapsing pace - but Zenyatta was being ridden harder early. I think it's wrong to assume the fast pace benefitted her more than Blame.


I admire the campaign of Blind Luck - I understand the campaign of Zenyatta (trying to nurse a perfect record) - I HATE the campaign of Blame. Pure chicken sh!t.

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

When you hate Blame's 2010 campaign as much as I do - if I'm going to award him Horse of the Year - the silver lining should come in his performances on the race track ... and those five performances were simply not good enough for me... and there was nothing special about a single one of them.

I have no problem with Blame winning, but personally - I wouldn't vote for him.

This is well thought out and argued, originally I was leaning towards Blame, but now I am not so sure.

Edit - On second thought I think Blame should get it, but it's close.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

Yeah. You know, I'd have less problem with pre-steriod Barry Bonds if he'd just have hit as many home runs as post-steriod BB did. But he wasn't that kind of slugger though.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Yeah. You know, I'd have less problem with people if I wasn't such a cantankerous whiny bitch of a complainer. But I'm just that kind of person though.

Fixed that up for you.

[Clip-Clop]

Blind Luck. Even in defeat.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'd have less problem with Blame's campaign if he was a brilliant speed horse like a Ghostzapper - who goes out and runs extremely hard the whole way. He isn't that kind of horse though.

I'm not sure if this will change your mind at all but someone down there this week called me and told me that Blame had some serious quarter cracks, after further investigation, he had them for a while and while it wasn't bothersome, one has to think if they ran him more, those could have become more of an issue.

[slotdirt]

Now I'm seeing the "Zenyatta's going to the Hall of Fame, but Blame isn't, so Zenyatta is obviously HOTY" arguments coming along. That's a juicy one. I bet we could easily find a dozen examples of horses losing HOTY to non-HOF horses and still going to the HOF.