Why retire her?

justindew · #1 11-07-2010, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Why bring her back? So they can lie about showcasing her to the country/world, keep her sheltered all year and then try to intimidate voters into finally gifting her HOY? If we have any decent handicap horses next year (probably a big if), she'd get drowned in the Classic. Bring back Goldikova instead.

A) That's partly my point. It's an enormous "if".

B) What are you basing this on?

ateamstupid · #2 11-07-2010, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew

A) That's partly my point. It's an enormous "if".

B) What are you basing this on?

Are you serious? I'm a big Blame fan, but he would get drowned in most years too. It was a horrendous year for the handicap division.

justindew · #3 11-07-2010, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Are you serious? I'm a big Blame fan, but he would get drowned in most years too. It was a horrendous year for the handicap division.

Becasue his Beyer Speed Figures aren't that high?

ateamstupid · #4 11-07-2010, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew

Becasue his Beyer Speed Figures aren't that high?

yes, pastor, that's part of it. You honestly think those two would've had a prayer in '04, '06 or '07? Child please.

justindew · #5 11-07-2010, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

yes, pastor, that's part of it. You honestly think those two would've had a prayer in '04, '06 or '07? Child please.

Probably not. But you said he would "get drowned in most years." You just listed three BCs where he would not have finished 1st. By your logic, only Ghostzapper and Curlin are worthy BCC winners.

miraja2 · #6 11-07-2010, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew

Probably not. But you said he would "get drowned in most years." You just listed three BCs where he would not have finished 1st. By your logic, only Ghostzapper and Curlin are worthy BCC winners.

Invasor won in '06.

slotdirt · #7 11-07-2010, 07:54 AM

Now that she's lost, if the Mosses really were sporting, we'd finally see her run on freaking turf. Anybody think she couldn't have won the F/M turf race on Friday?

ateamstupid · #8 11-07-2010, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew

Probably not. But you said he would "get drowned in most years." You just listed three BCs where he would not have finished 1st. By your logic, only Ghostzapper and Curlin are worthy BCC winners.

I skipped the two synthetic BCCs because they're completely nonsensical. Forget finishing first. They wouldn't have been better than 4th in '06, might have been a distant third and fourth in '07 and couldn't have finished in the top half of the field in '04. Pleasantly Perfect would've destroyed them too. Maybe they could've competed in '02. How far do you want to go back? They're extremely inferior handicap horses historically. I can't even believe you're arguing this.

justindew · #9 11-07-2010, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I skipped the two synthetic BCCs because they're completely nonsensical. Forget finishing first. They wouldn't have been better than 4th in '06, might have been a distant third and fourth in '07 and couldn't have finished in the top half of the field in '04. Pleasantly Perfect would've destroyed them too. Maybe they could've competed in '02. How far do you want to go back? They're extremely inferior handicap horses historically. I can't even believe you're arguing this.

I really don't want this to turn into another epic DT argument-where-there-doesn't-need-to-be-one, but what exactly do you think I am arguing? I think Blame is 2010's version of St. Liam, Mineshaft (yes, I realize he didn't run in the Classic), and Pleasantly Perfect. I don't think he's on par with Ghostzapper, Curlin, or Invasor. Well, maybe Invasor. But so what? Blame is a very good horse. And Zenyatta proving she is every bit as good as him tells me that she can still compete with and likely beat whomever the Handicap Division throws her way next year. So she shouldn't be retired.

For what it's worth, Blame would probably dominate the HD too next year.

miraja2 · #10 11-07-2010, 07:45 AM

If they brought her back next year she would probably still be a very good horse who could rack up some G1 and G2 wins. Of course, the same was true of Rachel Alexandra and she was retired too.
Most owners, including Zenyatta's, are probably too concerned with their horse's legacy to actually risk losing more races.
It is really too bad. If they actually did that and tried to win the DWC with her, I'd probably be cheering for her for the first time ever.

Cannon Shell · #11 11-07-2010, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

If they brought her back next year she would probably still be a very good horse who could rack up some G1 and G2 wins. Of course, the same was true of Rachel Alexandra and she was retired too.
Most owners, including Zenyatta's, are probably too concerned with their horse's legacy to actually risk losing more races.
It is really too bad. If they actually did that and tried to win the DWC with her, I'd probably be cheering for her for the first time ever.

Which is ironic considering the lack of knowledge of the history of the sport and it's great horses which has been on display lately. Seriously in the last 5 years I have heard cases made that that Smarty Jones, Big Brown, Curlin, Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta are top 10 all ten horses.

MaTH716 · #12 11-07-2010, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Are you serious? I'm a big Blame fan, but he would get drowned in most years too. It was a horrendous year for the handicap division.

You know it seems like lately, every year stinks. Whether it's the 3 year old crop, handicap division and so on. What makes you think that there will ever be another (what some percieve as) "STRONG" division/class ever again? Between injuries, less foals every year, early retirements and the so called weakening of the breed this is what we are going to be looking at for a long long time.

ateamstupid · #13 11-07-2010, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

You know it seems like lately, every year stinks. Whether it's the 3 year old crop, handicap division and so on. What makes you think that there will ever be another (what some percieve as) "STRONG" division/class ever again? Between injuries, less foals every year, early retirements and the so called weakening of the breed this is what we are going to be looking at for a long long time.

This is probably somewhat true with the older horses. The three-year-olds will still have strong years though. Last year's crop was terrific, as was the '07 bunch.

justindew · #14 11-07-2010, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This is probably somewhat true with the older horses. The three-year-olds will still have strong years though. Last year's crop was terrific, as was the '07 bunch.

More and more, it's becoming clear that if you want to have a horse who competes at the *highest levels of the sport, you can't point him/her toward the Triple Crown.

*anything not part of the TC

justindew · #15 11-07-2010, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew

More and more, it's becoming clear that if you want to have a horse who competes at the *highest levels of the sport, you can't point him/her toward the Triple Crown.

*anything not part of the TC

I have a feeling this poorly-worded post is about to get pounced on.

ateamstupid · #16 11-07-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew

More and more, it's becoming clear that if you want to have a horse who competes at the *highest levels of the sport, you can't point him/her toward the Triple Crown.

*anything not part of the TC

Yeah, the HOYs the last three years didn't go near the TC. And yesterday's 3-4-5 finishers were in the barn in May and June too.

justindew · #17 11-07-2010, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Yeah, the HOYs the last three years didn't go near the TC. And yesterday's 3-4-5 finishers were in the barn in May and June too.

Oh come on. The run-up to the TC and the TC itself ruins horses. You know it. God knows how many horses like Blame and Zenyatta we have been deprived of becasue they were rushed to get graded earning for the Derby and were never the same. What's the winning percentage of Derby winners in their post-Derby races? It's gotta be lower than low.

Danzig · #18 11-07-2010, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Are you serious? I'm a big Blame fan, but he would get drowned in most years too. It was a horrendous year for the handicap division.

i agree, the last few years have been sorry.
i would love to see them bring her back if they'd actually challenge her. same old same old would be a disgrace, and more annoying then enthralling.

dalakhani · #19 11-07-2010, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

i agree, the last few years have been sorry.
i would love to see them bring her back if they'd actually challenge her. same old same old would be a disgrace, and more annoying then enthralling.

Be honest...you didn't watch her every time she ran this year or at least most of the time? Whether she is challenged or not (and i am totally with you that i hope they challenge her especially on dirt), isn't it still somewhat of a spectacle every time she runs?

What other horse in the last 20 years has drawn the crowds that she does in non-classic or BC events? The longer she runs, the better it could be for racing.

Danzig · #20 11-07-2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Be honest...you didn't watch her every time she ran this year or at least most of the time? Whether she is challenged or not (and i am totally with you that i hope they challenge her especially on dirt), isn't it still somewhat of a spectacle every time she runs?

What other horse in the last 20 years has drawn the crowds that she does in non-classic or BC events? The longer she runs, the better it could be for racing.

call me crazy, but i'd rather see top horses face off then have one horse taking on a bunch of nothings. yesterday was her first face off with a gr 1 winner. her owners thought before yesterday that she merited hoy consideration- i find that laughable. the best two races this year were when blame met quality road, and yesterdays classic. zenyatta should have broken new ground this year-she should have been in the big cap, the pac classic.

and smarty jones drew more fans to oaklawn to watch him run the belmont on tv than has showed at zenyattas races this year.