Strongest Classic Field Ever?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by HomerS

I always get a kick of the word "facts". Whether used by politicians or horseplayers.

Probably one of the few who is not a "hater" or a "zealot" of the horse. More of a bemused onlooker.

I do think it is a great opportunity to make money- betting against her.

But dont get how personal the whole thing has gotten from both sides.

If she wins (which dont think will happen) not one of her haters would say "I was wrong". They would just dig in some more. Thats the way its always gone. And if she loses (which think will be the case) you will have people saying "see" and try to discredit every race she has ever run. Which is just silly and childish.

The thing is that, what many of the supposed detractors have pointed out wont be washed away with a win in the Classic. The weakness of her competition for the vast majority of her career and especially this year's inane schedule for a horse aiming for a horse of the year title is hardly childish or silly. I think the telling part of the argument is that when confronted with this the Zenyatta zealots don't come up with a counterpoint to the claim but launch counter attacks that we dont "appreciate greatness, she is special, you are just a hater, she is better than RA, ..."

Most of her 'detractors' make the point that we believe she is a very talented horse. But the facts are she has 2 dirt wins, 1 win over males and this year has beaten pretty much a bunch of mediocre (to be nice) fillies and yet we are supposed to rank her with Citation?

[TouchOfGrey]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Most of her 'detractors' make the point that we believe she is a very talented horse. But the facts are she has 2 dirt wins, 1 win over males and this year has beaten pretty much a bunch of mediocre (to be nice) fillies and yet we are supposed to rank her with Citation?

Citation didn't dance.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by TouchOfGrey

Citation didn't dance.

He danced as well as Kurt Warner

[alysheba4]

i used to own a 50 year anniversary video about H.P which had a lot of fotage of
citation.......what a tremendous looking horse he was.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by TouchOfGrey

Citation didn't dance.

[Clip-Clop]

He has confused competetive with "great" the field looks like it will make a great betting race. Lots of races do that. Does not make them great. Ghostzappers was really solid in recent memory.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by HomerS

So if she wins 20 in a row, including two Classics you will stick to your guns right? Thats exactly my point. Both fringes have invested so much emotionally that nothing, and i mean nothing, will change their minds.

To me if even if she finishes last she is a Hall of Famer and one of the best mares of all time. If she wins the Classic hard for me to argue she is not the best mare (didn't say horse) of all time.

I dont care what the quality of the competition is to win that many in a row, with that running style is simply amazing., Even if most of the wins were on the fake stuff.

I thought the voters got it right last year with HOY too.

Are you not comprehending? No one is denying that she is a hall of famer and one of the best mares of all time. And if she wins the Classic for a 2nd year in a row than she very well may be the best mare. BUT that isn't what the Z-tards will accept for her 'legacy'. We are constantly told she is one of the best if not THE best horse of all time. Once again, the streak is a great accomplishment but simply winning isn't enough to break into the pantheon. The hyperbole is what aggravates many of us. This isn't the "best field ever" assembled for the Classic. Last years wasn't either. She isn't the greatest horse ever. She shouldnt be horse of the year if she loses the Classic. People pointing these things out arent haters. They are simply grounded.

[Indian Charlie]

I don't think she's one of the best mares of all time.

Does that make me a hater? Only if you are a Zenyattard.

I love how Z fans proclaim how neutral they are, then go on to say anyone who disagrees with them is a Z hater.

Like Homer.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I don't think she's one of the best mares of all time.

Does that make me a hater? Only if you are a Zenyattard.

I love how Z fans proclaim how neutral they are, then go on to say anyone who disagrees with them is a Z hater.

Like Homer.

Just think, before Zenyatta came along, Clever Trevor was regarded in some quarters as the best horse to ever win a major route stakes over a synthetic surface in the U.S. Now, without a doubt, that title belongs solely to Zenyatta. Well done.

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I don't think she's one of the best mares of all time.

Does that make me a hater? Only if you are a Zenyattard.

I love how Z fans proclaim how neutral they are, then go on to say anyone who disagrees with them is a Z hater.

Like Homer.

I do not think she is one of the best mares in the past 10 years. If by that you mean top 5.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by chucklestheclown

I do not think she is one of the best mares in the past 10 years. If by that you mean top 5.

Huh?

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Huh?

If best is top 5 I would not put her there.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Yes all fair points. Not saying anyone making them is by definition a hater. But I also think the zenyettiacs are a logical reaction to those who have constantly criticized her. Both slides are blind.

how can they be fair points, and then be made by someone who is blind? that makes no sense. i haven't seen anyone yet who says they hate the horse. no one hates her. altho many may take exception to the rampant hyperbole, their feelings are limited to the delirious fans, not directed at the horse.

zenyatta is absolutely a special horse, one who has managed a win where no one else of her sex has triumphed. everyone gives credit where it's due. the patience is lost when people say 'even secretariat and man o war lost' or that she's the best ever. no, she's not. there's also the fact that her owners think that running in one decent race a year should qualify her as being the horse of the year. no, it doesn't, and it shouldn't. if it were any horse other than zenyatta with the racing done this year being mentioned that way, the person doing the mentioning would be shouted down. but because it's zenyatta, it's over the top.

[herkhorse]

OMG. Kudos to those of you still trying.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Please spare the drama. No one is being shouted down. What are you Jimmy Stewart now in Mr Smith Goes to Washington.

I am saying the points on the surface are fair ones. It doesnt mean the person making them is necessarily being fair.

Whats the old saw about stats being used for support not illumination?

People with an entrenched opinion will usually reach out for something that supports their point of view. Not challenges it.

And if she wins the Classic again and people still wont accept her then they are blind. And silly. Again both fringes of the discussion, and not even sure its a fringe anymore seems like everyone has a strong opinion one way or the other- keep upping the ante. Letting emotion get the best of them

um, i said this:

if it were any horse other than zenyatta with the racing done this year being mentioned that way, the person doing the mentioning would be shouted down.


how that means i said someone IS being shouted down, i don't know....

my point is, people are saying zenyatta's career makes her deserving of HOY. that is incorrect. just looking at what she's done this year in no way, shape or form qualifies her for even being mentioned....blind luck hasn't got a shot in hell at the same award, to this point i'd say she's had a tougher year than zenyatta. but, it's the 'queen'. if her owner was so intent on winning the award, he should have raced her accordingly. not ducked and dodged the same as last year, and expect a different outcome. one big race does not hoy make. rachel won last year because she had an extraordinary season, while zenyatta had one extraordinary race-which is exactly what she might end up with again this year. her races this year have been anything but extraordinary. only her compilation of wins over four years time is extraordinary. for that, she'll one day be in the hall of fame.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Yes all fair points. Not saying anyone making them is by definition a hater. But I also think the zenyettiacs are a logical reaction to those who have constantly criticized her. Both slides are blind.

I believe that the supposed haters are far more a reaction to the Zidiots than vice versa.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by monipenny

Well what's really funny is that Zenyatta herself can't ask why more boys won't come out and play. Maybe simply put they just took there ball and went home. It's not the fault of the Moss's or the Sheriffs who decides to run or not run. The BC Cup is a joke nowadays with punchdrunk journalists who try to shove the breeders cup down out throat. It's they decide who wins year end honors and the Zenyatta camp should be commended for coming back another year when so many choose to retire early. I say bravo to the Zenyatta faithful and good luck to this wonderful racemare. I hope she comes back well and enjoys her retirement.

the boys can't come and play when she runs in races restricted to fillies and mares.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by monipenny

Well what's really funny is that Zenyatta herself can't ask why more boys won't come out and play. Maybe simply put they just took there ball and went home. It's not the fault of the Moss's or the Sheriffs who decides to run or not run. The BC Cup is a joke nowadays with punchdrunk journalists who try to shove the breeders cup down out throat. It's they decide who wins year end honors and the Zenyatta camp should be commended for coming back another year when so many choose to retire early. I say bravo to the Zenyatta faithful and good luck to this wonderful racemare. I hope she comes back well and enjoys her retirement.

Please tell me there is some kind of tongue-in-cheek meaning that I am missing?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Please tell me there is some kind of tongue-in-cheek meaning that I am missing?

save your breath..it will all come crashing down next sat..

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Please tell me there is some kind of tongue-in-cheek meaning that I am missing?

I'm afraid there is some secret code in there having nothing to do with horse racing.