BEYER: Defining Zenyatta's historical role

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I'm really not sure why these basic concepts seem to be lost on people. I could understand if it's new fans saying this stuff, but for the most part it isn't. Weird...

Honestly Honu is one of the few CA people that at least offers something different than the usual fare. What is maddening is the older horse division stinks yet the Z camp still cared more about that stupid streak. The reason that very few horses ever had streaks like that? No one cared about wins in a row if there were bigger races to chase.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Honestly Honu is one of the few CA people that at least offers something different than the usual fare. What is maddening is the older horse division stinks yet the Z camp still cared more about that stupid streak. The reason that very few horses ever had streaks like that? No one cared about wins in a row if there were bigger races to chase.

I would care about the streak if I were her connections wouldnt you ? Its important and its good for racing 25k people showed up to the hood with their signs to cheer for her and see her do her thing. Yeah maybe they should have ventured out and did something else but at this stage in the game its a little late for that. You have something with stating the older male horse division isnt much to write home about and Z will most likely go against them in Kentucky. I would have to say that the last 4 years have been a no better time to be Zenyatta and her connections because other than her there are no real super stars even if her star is mostly shining on the west coast.

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Honu

I would have to say that the last 4 years have been a no better time to be Zenyatta and her connections because other than her there are no real super stars even if her star is mostly shining on the west coast.

Is that Justin Beiber?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Honu

I would care about the streak if I were her connections wouldnt you ? Its important and its good for racing 25k people showed up to the hood with their signs to cheer for her and see her do her thing. Yeah maybe they should have ventured out and did something else but at this stage in the game its a little late for that. You have something with stating the older male horse division isnt much to write home about and Z will most likely go against them in Kentucky. I would have to say that the last 4 years have been a no better time to be Zenyatta and her connections because other than her there are no real super stars even if her star is mostly shining on the west coast.

people talk about great horses by referencing great moments. affirmed and his rivalry with alydar, dr fager detesting turf but refusing to lose, personal ensign getting up in the last stride to beat winning colors, secretariat beating the field and the clock in the classics....john henry is immortalized in bronze with the bart. one of the greatest endings ever. i dont know if affirmed ever had a big win streak, but i know he was great. it appears at this point zenyattas biggest moment is tying peppers pride. tis a shame.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by Danzig

people talk about great horses by referencing great moments. affirmed and his rivalry with alydar, dr fager detesting turf but refusing to lose, personal ensign getting up in the last stride to beat winning colors, secretariat beating the field and the clock in the classics....john henry is immortalized in bronze with the bart. one of the greatest endings ever. i dont know if affirmed ever had a big win streak, but i know he was great. it appears at this point zenyattas biggest moment is tying peppers pride. tis a shame.

You should have been at the BC last year - whether you think Zenyatta beat the best or the worst...the crowd was electric and the race was a thrill to behold.

I would say it ranked as a "biggest moment" for those that attended.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by geeker2

You should have been at the BC last year - whether you think Zenyatta beat the best or the worst...the crowd was electric and the race was a thrill to behold.

I would say it ranked as a "biggest moment" for those that attended.

The exact same analysis could be applied to Rachel's Woodward.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Honu

I would care about the streak if I were her connections wouldnt you ? Its important and its good for racing 25k people showed up to the hood with their signs to cheer for her and see her do her thing. Yeah maybe they should have ventured out and did something else but at this stage in the game its a little late for that. You have something with stating the older male horse division isnt much to write home about and Z will most likely go against them in Kentucky. I would have to say that the last 4 years have been a no better time to be Zenyatta and her connections because other than her there are no real super stars even if her star is mostly shining on the west coast.

Would I care about the streak? I doubt that there would be a streak as I most assuredly would have challenged her by running in races that mean something and perhaps may have been defeated. However I also might have won races like the Big Cap or Whitney or Woodward or JC Gold Cup or Foster or Arlington Million or Beverly D or Diana or Hollywood Gold Cup or Pacific Classic or Goodwood or something like that. I guarantee that I wouldn't have won either the East coast or West Coast version of the Lady's Secret this year.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Would I care about the streak? I doubt that there would be a streak as I most assuredly would have challenged her by running in races that mean something and perhaps may have been defeated. However I also might have won races like the Big Cap or Whitney or Woodward or JC Gold Cup or Foster or Arlington Million or Beverly D or Diana or Hollywood Gold Cup or Pacific Classic or Goodwood or something like that. I guarantee that I wouldn't have won either the East coast or West Coast version of the Lady's Secret this year.

So do you think 20 years from RA is going to have a greater legacy than Zenyatta because she did take on and win such demanding races for a filly?

I think I would take that bet if you wanted it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

So do you think 20 years from RA is going to have a greater legacy than Zenyatta because she did take on and win such demanding races for a filly?

I think I would take that bet if you wanted it.

If Zenyatta bombs in the Classic? Probably, at least on the East Coast.

Of course the point I could make is that neither will have much of a lasting legacy anyway. Just as Smarty Jones, Big Brown and Curlin have all been pretty much forgotten and it has only been a few years for them. Seriously it was only 2 years ago and some of the geniuses (many are now Zen-tards) were claiming that Curlin was an all time, top 10 great. THAT issue doesn't crop up much any longer.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If Zenyatta bombs in the Classic? Probably, at least on the East Coast.

Of course the point I could make is that neither will have much of a lasting legacy anyway. Just as Smarty Jones, Big Brown and Curlin have all been pretty much forgotten and it has only been a few years for them. Seriously it was only 2 years ago and some of the geniuses (many are now Zen-tards) were claiming that Curlin was an all time, top 10 great. THAT issue doesn't crop up much any longer.

Screw you! Curlin is the bestest horse ever.

You know, if I were Moss, I'd send Z to be bred to Curlin. That way if her foal was better than RA's, he could brag.

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Screw you! Curlin is the bestest horse ever.

You know, if I were Moss, I'd send Z to be bred to Curlin. That way if her foal was better than RA's, he could brag.

Obviously...they will never meet.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Screw you! Curlin is the bestest horse ever.

You know, if I were Moss, I'd send Z to be bred to Curlin. That way if her foal was better than RA's, he could brag.

I thought her greatness was going to carry over to her stud career...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

So do you think 20 years from RA is going to have a greater legacy than Zenyatta because she did take on and win such demanding races for a filly?

I think I would take that bet if you wanted it.

i'm pretty sure it was eng that wrote he expects another mare to win the bcc before another filly wins the preakness, haskell and woodward. i'm thinking that's true.

it's funny....when zenyatta is the greatest folks start posting, and get some negative feedback, they bring up who rachel beat. but no one is saying rachel is an all-time great, are they? not that i know of. so, if you can't even settle if zenyatta is better than rachel, how can anyone say where she fits historically?

i think it's safe to say, in a ballpark figure way, that 1980 divides the end of the golden age of racing from the modern day. any top ten list of all time best thoroughbreds would include spectacular bid. any horse since then? most likely not.
you have the triumvirate of man o war, secretariat and citation. that leaves seven. after that, others get put in the mix for a variety of reasons, but you really have to be special to be in the top tier, maybe even top 20. could someone put zenyatta there? no, i don't think so.

so, now greatness gets watered down when you start adding more and more to the list...suddenly, great isn't quite so great.
so, let's say you limit it to past 1980...where does she fit? another round of arguing would begin. but, much of the current crowd arguing the point doesn't have much history to go by, which is why they get grief when they suggest a mare with one lifetime open win to her credit is an all-time great. are we talking all-time, all-time...or just recent memory all-time great?
zenyatta winning the bc was special, because she was the first distaffer to manage it. she's special because she's undefeated. but all-time, ahead of ruffian great? dr. fager, damascus, round table great? john henry? i don't think so.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's funny....when zenyatta is the greatest folks start posting, and get some negative feedback, they bring up who rachel beat. but no one is saying rachel is an all-time great, are they?

In all fairness to the Zenyattards out there, people last year were saying RA is among the greats of all time.

Which was equally as stupid as saying Z is.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i'm pretty sure it was eng that wrote he expects another mare to win the bcc before another filly wins the preakness, haskell and woodward. i'm thinking that's true.

it's funny....when zenyatta is the greatest folks start posting, and get some negative feedback, they bring up who rachel beat. but no one is saying rachel is an all-time great, are they? not that i know of. so, if you can't even settle if zenyatta is better than rachel, how can anyone say where she fits historically?

i think it's safe to say, in a ballpark figure way, that 1980 divides the end of the golden age of racing from the modern day. any top ten list of all time best thoroughbreds would include spectacular bid. any horse since then? most likely not.
you have the triumvirate of man o war, secretariat and citation. that leaves seven. after that, others get put in the mix for a variety of reasons, but you really have to be special to be in the top tier, maybe even top 20. could someone put zenyatta there? no, i don't think so.

so, now greatness gets watered down when you start adding more and more to the list...suddenly, great isn't quite so great.
so, let's say you limit it to past 1980...where does she fit? another round of arguing would begin. but, much of the current crowd arguing the point doesn't have much history to go by, which is why they get grief when they suggest a mare with one lifetime open win to her credit is an all-time great. are we talking all-time, all-time...or just recent memory all-time great?
zenyatta winning the bc was special, because she was the first distaffer to manage it. she's special because she's undefeated. but all-time, ahead of ruffian great? dr. fager, damascus, round table great? john henry? i don't think so.

I think the cutoff is a bit later than that, about 1990. I think horses like Easy Goer, Lady's Secret, Sunday Silence, John Henry all fit in very well with horses from the 50, 60, 70's.

Its not fair to really compare the two era's IMO because the game has changed.

So what do you do then, say there are no great horses? Can a single horse though be good enough to be placed in that group? I think so, but as a whole its not going to be very many.

We see the same thing in many sports. Now with 85 scholarship limits I guarentee you the best college football teams cant compete with the best of the 1980's.

With the salary caps you can say the same for the NFL and NBA. The Celtics, Lakers, Pistons of the 80's were better than any recent winners.

So what do you do? Its probably best to confine it to your contemporaries. Zenyatta fits in at the top of any list the past 10-15 years IMO.

To my original point though, going 19-0, or God forbid the meltdown that will come if she goes 20-0, is going to stand longer than winning the Preakness, a race that has definitely become watered down.

[Danzig]

rachel was the first filly to win the preakness in decades....zenyatta is the first to win 19 straight since PP. who passed cigar among others. that's fairly recent. at any rate, both did special things last year...and neither is an all time great

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Would I care about the streak? I doubt that there would be a streak as I most assuredly would have challenged her by running in races that mean something and perhaps may have been defeated. However I also might have won races like the Big Cap or Whitney or Woodward or JC Gold Cup or Foster or Arlington Million or Beverly D or Diana or Hollywood Gold Cup or Pacific Classic or Goodwood or something like that. I guarantee that I wouldn't have won either the East coast or West Coast version of the Lady's Secret this year.

Not with Jerry and Ann Moss, they really dont like to ship around that much, only reason I know this is because Dick used to train for them. They would ship for BC races and such but they were never interested in having their horses travel that much.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Honu

Not with Jerry and Ann Moss, they really dont like to ship around that much, only reason I know this is because Dick used to train for them. They would ship for BC races and such but they were never interested in having their horses travel that much.

Which is completely their prerogative. But in not doing so they open themselves up to criticism which is IMO, deserved. They may have some aversion to shipping but they (and the 'fans' of the horse) should understand that in doing so they have looked like they are ducking competition. If they had run in the Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup or Goodwood, the fear of shipping excuse wouldn't have looked so lame.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Which is completely their prerogative. But in not doing so they open themselves up to criticism which is IMO, deserved. They may have some aversion to shipping but they (and the 'fans' of the horse) should understand that in doing so they have looked like they are ducking competition. If they had run in the Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup or Goodwood, the fear of shipping excuse wouldn't have looked so lame.

you act like you've never heard of the Rocky Mountains.