Drug positives at Canterbury Park

[Rudeboyelvis]

Seriously, how difficult is it to develop baseline blood chemistry levels and disqualify horses that exceed those levels? Removes all of this "well he's got the new juice that they can't detect" stuff (not that it isn't warranted).

They've been doing it in Cycling ( cue TFM) for years.

Serious question, not a vet, and don't pretend to be.... but a post race blood chemistry test would indicate elevated red blood cell levels ( eliminating EPO and other cancer management drugs) CO levels, and anything out of whack with a normal thoroughbred blood chemistry.

Would eliminate the need to figure out "How" they're cheating and hold them accountable for their monster "move ups"... If they tested at a level prior to a trainer getting them and performance enhancing levels are indicated after a move up, you get suspended - regardless of what you used...

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Seriously, how difficult is it to develop baseline blood chemistry levels and disqualify horses that exceed those levels? Removes all of this "well he's got the new juice that they can't detect" stuff (not that it isn't warranted).

They've been doing it in Cycling ( cue TFM) for years.

Serious question, not a vet, and don't pretend to be.... but a post race blood chemistry test would indicate elevated red blood cell levels ( eliminating EPO and other cancer management drugs) CO levels, and anything out of whack with a normal thoroughbred blood chemistry.

Would eliminate the need to figure out "How" they're cheating and hold them accountable for their monster "move ups"... If they tested at a level prior to a trainer getting them and performance enhancing levels are indicated after a move up, you get suspended - regardless of what you used...

Good idea in theory, but the cost is what will make it never happen.

[Rudeboyelvis]

I hear ya Tom...Unfortunately it always seems to lead back to the same, tired discussion among industry insiders of expending funds (RE: take out) in lieu of limiting days and reducing tracks, - which , by the way would in turn rid juiced up POS's out of "Racinos" and getting the sport back to an actual sport... But I digress...

Realistically there is no reason that the sport can't attract as many gamblers as any other form...Gamblers these days simply have enough sense (and knowledge) to know when the game is rigged...which is why we muddle along, dealing with the same issues we dealt with back in the '40's....

Take the shot, dismiss the naysayer's, and see where we are. The cost of blood testing is insignificant relative to the exponential growth we can achieve if the betting public is convinced that the game is clean.... and Blood Chemistry Testing is the only realistic way to win them over.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

I hear ya Tom...Unfortunately it always seems to lead back to the same, tired discussion among industry insiders of expending funds (RE: take out) in lieu of limiting days and reducing tracks, - which , by the way would in turn rid juiced up POS's out of "Racinos" and getting the sport back to an actual sport... But I digress...

Realistically there is no reason that the sport can't attract as many gamblers as any other form...Gamblers these days simply have enough sense (and knowledge) to know when the game is rigged...which is why we muddle along, dealing with the same issues we dealt with back in the '40's....

Take the shot, dismiss the naysayer's, and see where we are. The cost of blood testing is insignificant relative to the exponential growth we can achieve if the betting public is convinced that the game is clean.... and Blood Chemistry Testing is the only realistic way to win them over.

I personally don't think that people are not playing the ponies because of drugs. Matter fact, the sharps know who has the good stuff and who doesn't.

Drug testing will never be regulated and consistent because there is no association. The NTRA and any other comedy association is just there to give some people a job and type up of some press releases about some medicore horse running.

What this industry needs is some young rock star that pisses people off, like a Mark Cuban, to cause a stir, do something like create a 'league', I don't know, and if comedy corporations like CDI or Magna don't want in, adios.

Plus, it isn't like if we had that type of blood testing that these bozos wouldn't figure out a way to beat it, it will ALWAYS be around like it always has.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Scav

Good idea in theory, but the cost is what will make it never happen.

This is the very reason the sport should be completely shut down. If they cannot afford to keep the sport legitimate, it shouldn't exitst.

How in the f^&%k can you have federal laws on the books which make it a felony to alter the outcome of a sporting event/wagering event and not have the means to enforce it?

The game needs to be stopped completely until they take seriously the need to run legitimate events.

[Cannon Shell]

http://www.drf.com/news/zero-toleran...otal-confusion

[Riot]

Good article. Most positives are for trace amounts of common therapeutic meds that, no way, no how, could ever, remotely, possibly at those levels, have affected the outcome of a race.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

http://www.drf.com/news/zero-toleran...otal-confusion

Good article.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Seriously, how difficult is it to develop baseline blood chemistry levels and disqualify horses that exceed those levels? Removes all of this "well he's got the new juice that they can't detect" stuff (not that it isn't warranted).

They've been doing it in Cycling ( cue TFM) for years.

Serious question, not a vet, and don't pretend to be.... but a post race blood chemistry test would indicate elevated red blood cell levels ( eliminating EPO and other cancer management drugs) CO levels, and anything out of whack with a normal thoroughbred blood chemistry.

Would eliminate the need to figure out "How" they're cheating and hold them accountable for their monster "move ups"... If they tested at a level prior to a trainer getting them and performance enhancing levels are indicated after a move up, you get suspended - regardless of what you used...

While what you are talking about would help with blood doping in theory, I seem to recall that there was a reason why it wasn't practical to do in horses. I will try to find out. Of course that would not help a bit in the Canterbury situation where none of the meds found was a blood doping agent.

[Many Others]

why is Etodolac considered so wrong in equines, it's only an NSAID anti-inflammatory and approved for use in humans and canines??

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Many Others

why is Etodolac considered so wrong in equines, it's only an NSAID anti-inflammatory and approved for use in humans and canines??

It isn't that the drug is wrong or bad...but it isn't approved for use in horses, meaning it is more than likely that they didn't get it from their vets (at least not the horsey vet)...which can lead one to conclude that they are trying to elude the testing. Vets use drugs off label all the time, (even giving rabies vaccines to late term broodmares is off label) this just seems worse.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

It isn't that the drug is wrong or bad...but it isn't approved for use in horses, meaning it is more than likely that they didn't get it from their vets (at least not the horsey vet)...which can lead one to conclude that they are trying to elude the testing. Vets use drugs off label all the time, (even giving rabies vaccines to late term broodmares is off label) this just seems worse.

Not to mention there is less of a chance for them to test for a non-approved drug. AP happens to be using the "super" test which isnt really super but means that they are screening for a far greater number of drugs than usual. places like FL sometimes are only screening for 5 or 6 drugs and almost always test for lasix which is a huge waste of money for the most part. The fact that two of the trainers got multiple positives in a short period of time means they probably have been using it for a while but they recently just started testing for it. Of course we have no idea what the levels were or if there were any chance that the positives affected performance because there is almost zero research done in this area.

I'm sure I sound like a broken record but detecting a legal medication at a minute level that has zero chance to effect the performance of a horse is not my idea of a solid, dependable testing program. But for the vast majority of positive tests that is exactly what happens. If trainers can elude the testing simply by using a non-equine approved med that is easily attainable, what makes anyone think that the real juice will ever be found? Does anyone really think that AP is the only place these trainers use this particular med?

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While what you are talking about would help with blood doping in theory, I seem to recall that there was a reason why it wasn't practical to do in horses. I will try to find out. Of course that would not help a bit in the Canterbury situation where none of the meds found was a blood doping agent.

If you're looking at post race rbc levels wouldn't they be high anyway? Because they have dumped all their reserves from the spleen during the effort? I could be wrong on that....perhaps beth could help....my knowledge of blood chemistry is pretty limited

[Riot]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

If you're looking at post race rbc levels wouldn't they be high anyway? Because they have dumped all their reserves from the spleen during the effort? I could be wrong on that....perhaps beth could help....my knowledge of blood chemistry is pretty limited

No, you're right - splenic contraction increases the RBC thus PCV.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, you're right - splenic contraction increases the RBC thus PCV.

Couldn't you draw the blood levels prerace and match them versus a baseline? If a horses prerace hematocrit level is off the charts then it would be scratched?

I think the cyclists do 50% level = a "positive" test.

In racehorses I like to see the levels over 40 though the "normal" range is usually called at 34-42. Sometimes in the summer we might see a higher level because of dehydration.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Couldn't you draw the blood levels prerace and match them versus a baseline? If a horses prerace hematocrit level is off the charts then it would be scratched?

I think the cyclists do 50% level = a "positive" test.

In racehorses I like to see the levels over 40 though the "normal" range is usually called at 34-42. Sometimes in the summer we might see a higher level because of dehydration.

Yes exactly. You could do baseline testing on horses in their stall the morning of the race. You would need a couple to establish a horses' own baseline range, though, but easy to do.

The PCV will increase a bit within a couple hours of giving them their lasix for training or racing (the lasix dehydrates them) so a holding barn wouldn't work (plus the anxiety/fretting = splenic contraction = increased hematocrit)

Racing (exercise) brings the PCV to 60-65%.

Horses "dope" themselves via splenic release.

Because the horse "does it naturally" (increases the oxygen carrying capacity during exercise stress) and will still do it anyway even if EPO is used, or altitude training is used, I personally don't see the attraction of increasing the resting hemocrit (and red cell mass, thus hemoglobin) with EPO very much. The PCV can be literally too high. And you risk having a fatal immune reaction if you give human EPO - the horse can mistakenly destroy its own red cells and kill itself.

There was a study done back in the 1960's, that showed elite TB racehorses (the fastest) had a slightly less hematocrit than their slower compatriats did (34-35 vs 36-37) Interesting.

Too many RBC's can be a bad thing - the lungs still have to be able to upload with oxygen. And suck in max oxygen. And RBC's have to circulate. And the tissues have to download that oxygen. All that has to work at maximal efficiency, too. That can all be "trained" into a horse.

I'm into optimal training via monitoring heartrate/lactic acid levels, and nutrition - feeding for sprinting vs feeding for classic distances.