The Boss has passed.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They paid to get rid of him. I didnt say they were perfect.

They have 16800000 this year and the yankees have 21300000.

When you factor in that the yankees have to pay four aging hall of famers/borderline hall of famers 63,000,000 combined, the payroll isn't really that different.

The Yankees were great for a long time and rewarded their homegrown dynasty guys with big contracts. Seeing as how the Red Sox neither grew their own players nor won for an extended period of time, they aren't burdened with these types of deals. Instead, they can cheap out on guys when they get older because they don't owe them anything.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

They have 16800000 this year and the yankees have 21300000.

When you factor in that the yankees have to pay four aging hall of famers/borderline hall of famers 63,000,000 combined, the payroll isn't really that different.

The Yankees were great for a long time and rewarded their homegrown dynasty guys with big contracts. Seeing as how the Red Sox neither grew their own players nor won for an extended period of time, they aren't burdened with these types of deals. Instead, they can cheap out on guys when they get older because they don't owe them anything.

Glad you got into banking. It what world are 168 million and 213 million the same? Boston had the 6th higest payroll in 2009 btw.

And Jeter and Riveria are borderline hall of famers? No one held a gun to their head to sign these guys. That is the difference. Virtually every other team would have to make a choice to keep paying these guys or get new blood. The yankees can do both.

The red sox only have 100 mill committed in salary next year.

Forbes estimated the Reds as being worth 330 million in April. Or about what Jeter and Lee will sign for this off season.

Yeah the red sox never lock up their players. Thats why Beckett got an extention and Youklilis and Pedroia are signed for the future and they skipped arb with Lester and signed him long term.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Glad you got into banking. It what world are 168 million and 213 million the same? Boston had the 6th higest payroll in 2009 btw.

And Jeter and Riveria are borderline hall of famers? No one held a gun to their head to sign these guys. That is the difference. Virtually every other team would have to make a choice to keep paying these guys or get new blood. The yankees can do both.

The red sox only have 100 mill committed in salary next year.

Forbes estimated the Reds as being worth 330 million in April. Or about what Jeter and Lee will sign for this off season.

Yeah the red sox never lock up their players. Thats why Beckett got an extention and Youklilis and Pedroia are signed for the future and they skipped arb with Lester and signed him long term.

Thats not what I said. Signing Lester long term now is a good business move but how does that have anything to do with the yankee obligations that I am referring to? How is Beckett's signing or Pedroia or Youkilis similar in any way to what the yanks gave Rivera, Posada, Pettite and Jeter? Yeah, I love the way the Sox did their players that got them a world series after 250 years. Then again, it was one title with that group so they really didn't owe them much. You do have to love the way Ramon was kicked to the curb. And Manny. And Damon. And Millar.

I didnt say 168 million and 213 million are the same. I'm glad you got into Horse training instead of teaching kids to reach. This is 2010 right? The Red Sox are second behind the Yanks with 168 million.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Thats not what I said. Signing Lester long term now is a good business move but how does that have anything to do with the yankee obligations that I am referring to? How is Beckett's signing or Pedroia or Youkilis similar in any way to what the yanks gave Rivera, Posada, Pettite and Jeter? Yeah, I love the way the Sox did their players that got them a world series after 250 years. Then again, it was one title with that group so they really didn't owe them much. You do have to love the way Ramon was kicked to the curb. And Manny. And Damon. And Millar.

I didnt say 168 million and 213 million are the same. I'm glad you got into Horse training instead of teaching kids to reach. This is 2010 right? The Red Sox are second behind the Yanks with 168 million.

Are you serious? How is Beckett's signing a 4 year 68 million dollar deal or Youkulis signing a 4 year 41 million dollar deal or Pedroia signing a 6 year 40 million dollar deal any different than Posada signing a 4 year 52 million or Rivera signing a 3 year 45 million dollar deal or pettite signing a 1 year 11 million dollar deal? Jeters contract was signed in 2001. Seriously what is the difference? Because the yankees are older? You seriously think they would have signed them if they still werent producing?

And only someone clueless would say that the Red Sox didnt do the right thing after 2004 since they wound up winning again three years later. Pedro left as a FA, got 50 million from the Mets for 1 good season. Yeah bad move. Millar did play another year in Boston but as a 35 year old player with fading skills he left as a FA and continued to fade. Damon left as a FA a year after they won the WS to who else? The yankees overpaid to get him and the fact that the Yankees "kicked him to the curb" after last season shouldnt be lost on you either. Manny? Perhaps you forgot the stretch when he demanded a trade and decided not to play hard?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you serious? How is Beckett's signing a 4 year 68 million dollar deal or Youkulis signing a 4 year 41 million dollar deal or Pedroia signing a 6 year 40 million dollar deal any different than Posada signing a 4 year 52 million or Rivera signing a 3 year 45 million dollar deal or pettite signing a 1 year 11 million dollar deal? Jeters contract was signed in 2001. Seriously what is the difference? Because the yankees are older? You seriously think they would have signed them if they still werent producing?

And only someone clueless would say that the Red Sox didnt do the right thing after 2004 since they wound up winning again three years later. Pedro left as a FA, got 50 million from the Mets for 1 good season. Yeah bad move. Millar did play another year in Boston but as a 35 year old player with fading skills he left as a FA and continued to fade. Damon left as a FA a year after they won the WS to who else? The yankees overpaid to get him and the fact that the Yankees "kicked him to the curb" after last season shouldnt be lost on you either. Manny? Perhaps you forgot the stretch when he demanded a trade and decided not to play hard?

Again, you have your facts wrong. Damon was offered a contract. Boras chose to play chicken and ended up on the wrong end. Damon should blame Boras for not properly assessing the market, not the yanks.

Manny demanded to be traded after being shopped for 5 years after he did nothing but carry the offense to their only two titles since woodrow wilson. yeah, they treated him great. How about pedro? He was only one of the best pitchers in the last quarter century. They treated him really good too. Bronson Aroyo? Not a great pitcher but he did his part. How was he handled? Mike Lowell? Theo should be ashamed of himself.

But that really isn't the point I was making. The yankees are an older team. They are an older CHAMPIONSHIP team. The yanks chose to stay loyal to their core group. How else can you explain Posada's contract? 4 yrs 52 million for a 36 yr old catcher. Anyone with half a brain knows that was a gift. Mo getting 45 million? Yeah, there were a bunch of teams that were going to pay 15 million a year to a 38 year old closer. Jeter got that contract 10 years ago as a reward for winning four series.

If Boston were to keep this group together and they were to win a couple of titles, then their payroll later would be much bigger. No????? The fact is, they havent had the same success. Even so, if history tells us anything, they wouldnt pay those guys anyway. Heck, if history tells us anything, they won't be in any position to have to make those decisions.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Again, you have your facts wrong. Damon was offered a contract. Boras chose to play chicken and ended up on the wrong end. Damon should blame Boras for not properly assessing the market, not the yanks.

Manny demanded to be traded after being shopped for 5 years after he did nothing but carry the offense to their only two titles since woodrow wilson. yeah, they treated him great. How about pedro? He was only one of the best pitchers in the last quarter century. They treated him really good too. Bronson Aroyo? Not a great pitcher but he did his part. How was he handled? Mike Lowell? Theo should be ashamed of himself.

But that really isn't the point I was making. The yankees are an older team. They are an older CHAMPIONSHIP team. The yanks chose to stay loyal to their core group. How else can you explain Posada's contract? 4 yrs 52 million for a 36 yr old catcher. Anyone with half a brain knows that was a gift. Mo getting 45 million? Yeah, there were a bunch of teams that were going to pay 15 million a year to a 38 year old closer. Jeter got that contract 10 years ago as a reward for winning four series.

If Boston were to keep this group together and they were to win a couple of titles, then their payroll later would be much bigger. No????? The fact is, they havent had the same success. Even so, if history tells us anything, they wouldnt pay those guys anyway. Heck, if history tells us anything, they won't be in any position to have to make those decisions.

So where were the guys they were going to replace those players with?
Please tell me what catchers have been available that can hit like Posada still can? You seriously don't think that Mariano Rivera couldnt get 45 million on the open market 2 years ago??? Brad lidge got 37.5 for 3 years! Brad freakin Lidge! And that was a season removed from him having a 5.28 era.

Only someone who was clueless would infer that the Red Sox did the wrong thing by letting those players go. Yeah It would have been a good move to keep pedro and pay him 50 million and get a single good season out of him. And Millar really lit it up as a 37 year old in the NL. And for your info, lowell is making a lot of money to do nothing. The Red Sox didnt kick him in the hip, he got hurt. Oh poor manny, he was so mistreated in Boston. That 125 million they gave him was soooo wronggg. He pouted because they did not want to give him another long term deal for mega money when he was on the decline. They were 100% right in trading him as he dogged it and faked injuries and after one good 1/2 of a season has gone steadily down hill. Would you want to be paying him 25 million a year for the next 2 years? And yes the red sox owed a great deal of gratitude to Bronson Arroyo and that 24-19 record and 4.19 era over 2 1/2 years. Trading him to a team to the NL was a terrible thing for his career. He has only been able to bank $33 million in 5 years in Cincy as a mediocre pitcher.

And the yankees didnt re-sign Damon or matsui because they wanted them to leave. Damon was offered a substandard contract with a signifigant cut in pay which was less than mike cameron and Bobby Abreau signed for. They squeezed him out. They did the same thing to Torre.

And Boston won the championship once again 3 years later (2007) after letting all those fading pieces go which makes your statement that they havent found success since entirely wrong.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So where were the guys they were going to replace those players with?
Please tell me what catchers have been available that can hit like Posada still can? You seriously don't think that Mariano Rivera couldnt get 45 million on the open market 2 years ago??? Brad lidge got 37.5 for 3 years! Brad freakin Lidge! And that was a season removed from him having a 5.28 era.

Only someone who was clueless would infer that the Red Sox did the wrong thing by letting those players go. Yeah It would have been a good move to keep pedro and pay him 50 million and get a single good season out of him. And Millar really lit it up as a 37 year old in the NL. And for your info, lowell is making a lot of money to do nothing. The Red Sox didnt kick him in the hip, he got hurt. Oh poor manny, he was so mistreated in Boston. That 125 million they gave him was soooo wronggg. He pouted because they did not want to give him another long term deal for mega money when he was on the decline. They were 100% right in trading him as he dogged it and faked injuries and after one good 1/2 of a season has gone steadily down hill. Would you want to be paying him 25 million a year for the next 2 years? And yes the red sox owed a great deal of gratitude to Bronson Arroyo and that 24-19 record and 4.19 era over 2 1/2 years. Trading him to a team to the NL was a terrible thing for his career. He has only been able to bank $33 million in 5 years in Cincy as a mediocre pitcher.

And the yankees didnt re-sign Damon or matsui because they wanted them to leave. Damon was offered a substandard contract with a signifigant cut in pay which was less than mike cameron and Bobby Abreau signed for. They squeezed him out. They did the same thing to Torre.

And Boston won the championship once again 3 years later (2007) after letting all those fading pieces go which makes your statement that they havent found success since entirely wrong.

but w/o Manny they haven't won squat chuck

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Seeing as how the Red Sox neither grew their own players nor won for an extended period of time, they aren't burdened with these types of deals. Instead, they can cheap out on guys when they get older because they don't owe them anything.

you werent serious were you?

Have you been drinking?

Red sox wins in the 2000's
95
95
96 Won WS
86
95
98 Won WS
95
93
82
85

Pedroia
Youkilis
Papplebon
Ellsbury
Lester
Buckholz
Bard
all drafted by the current management of Boston

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

you werent serious were you?

Have you been drinking?

Red sox wins in the 2000's
95
95
96 Won WS
86
95
98 Won WS
95
93
82
85

Pedroia
Youkilis
Papplebon
Ellsbury
Lester
Buckholz
Bard
all drafted by the current management of Boston

How many of those guys played in 2004? Heck, how many of those guys were integral to 2007?

LOL...try again.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

you werent serious were you?

Have you been drinking?

Red sox wins in the 2000's
95
95
96 Won WS
86
95
98 Won WS
95
93
82
85

Pedroia
Youkilis
Papplebon
Ellsbury
Lester
Buckholz
Bard
all drafted by the current management of Boston

Are you on crack?

I read this again. You want to compare that group to Rivera, Jeter, Posada and Pettite? You want to compare what the Red Sox have done in the last couple of seasons to what the Yanks have accomplished since 1994?

This isn't approaching Delonte West is a great player status yet but its getting there.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Are you on crack?

I read this again. You want to compare that group to Rivera, Jeter, Posada and Pettite? You want to compare what the Red Sox have done in the last couple of seasons to what the Yanks have accomplished since 1994?

This isn't approaching Delonte West is a great player status yet but its getting there.

Are you a ****in idiot?

The guys listed are homegrown guy from the current Red Sox managemnt which was brought in in 2003 since the current owners bought the teasm in 2002. Only you would try to compare them to players who have played 15 years.

We are talking about the Red sox and your insistence that they aren't developing players, not comparing the Red Sox and yankees going back to 1994.


Youlkilis- 31 yrs old 4 full seasons in MLB. Finished 3rd and 6th in MVP voting last 2 years. Gold Glove player. 2-all star

Pedroia- 27 yrs old 3 full seasons. rookie of the year. MVP. 3 time all star. Gold glove. silver slugger

Papelbon -29 yrs old 4 seasons in MLB- 4 time all star. World series MVP

Lester- 26 yrs old 53-19 with 3.50 era lifetime. all star.

Buckholz - 25 yrs old 10-4 with 2.45 era this year. all star

ellsbury - 25 yrs old hit .301 with 94 runs and 70 sb last year

Bard- 25 yrs old- dominant set up man-43 IP/23 hits 1.87 era. next closer


yeah that group isnt very good.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you a ****in idiot?

The guys listed are homegrown guy from the current Red Sox managemnt which was brought in in 2003 since the current owners bought the teasm in 2002. Only you would try to compare them to players who have played 15 years.

We are talking about the Red sox and your insistence that they aren't developing players, not comparing the Red Sox and yankees going back to 1994.


Youlkilis- 31 yrs old 4 full seasons in MLB. Finished 3rd and 6th in MVP voting last 2 years. Gold Glove player. 2-all star

Pedroia- 27 yrs old 3 full seasons. rookie of the year. MVP. 3 time all star. Gold glove. silver slugger

Papelbon -29 yrs old 4 seasons in MLB- 4 time all star. World series MVP

Lester- 26 yrs old 53-19 with 3.50 era lifetime. all star.

Buckholz - 25 yrs old 10-4 with 2.45 era this year. all star

ellsbury - 25 yrs old hit .301 with 94 runs and 70 sb last year

Bard- 25 yrs old- dominant set up man-43 IP/23 hits 1.87 era. next closer


yeah that group isnt very good.

I dont know if you do this on purpose or if you are mildly illiterate. I am starting to think it is a combination of both.

Boston has one of the best minor league systems in the game. When did I say differently? All I said was that the 2004 title was won by players that they didnt grow. Even in 2007, only Youk and pedroia made real contributions of the every day players and only paplebon out of the staff. What championship team have they grown? What group of players have they brought up like the yankees or braves did? If anything, those two titles were bought.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I dont know if you do this on purpose or if you are mildly illiterate. I am starting to think it is a combination of both.

Boston has one of the best minor league systems in the game. When did I say differently? All I said was that the 2004 title was won by players that they didnt grow. Even in 2007, only Youk and pedroia made real contributions of the every day players and only paplebon out of the staff. What championship team have they grown? What group of players have they brought up like the yankees or braves did? If anything, those two titles were bought.

This is what i said:


While Boston and the mets have more revenues than most everyone else they are still dwarfed by the Yankees. The Red Sox have been competitive because they have not only spent on FA's (though not to the degree of the yankees) but have a superior player development program. Of course having the extra cash to pay draftees over slot and the ability to re-sign its developed players matters too

Again you go off on tangents when it suits your argument. I clearly was refering to the Red Sox current managemnt teasm, namely Epstein who took over in 2003.

And the Red Sox hardly "bought" those championships, especially not the way the Yankees "bought" last years. The 2004 team had 1 mega FA signing on the team, Manny.
Do I have to rehash again?

2004 Red Sox
C- Varitek- acquired via minor league trade
1b-Millar -signed as FA- 2 million a year
2b-Bellhorn- acquired via trade was a player to be named later
SS-Reese - FA- 1 million a year
3b- Mueller - FA- 2.1 million a year
OF-kapler- FA- 750k a year
OF Damon- FA 7.1 million
Of- Manny- FA 22.5 million
others
Youlkilis -drafted
Dave Roberts-via trade
Carbera-via trade

Sp-Pedro-via trade
Sp-Shilling-via trade
Sp-Lowe-via trade
Arroyo- waiver claim
Wakefield- FA 4 million
Foulke -FA 3.5 million

Outside of manny all the other FA's that they "bought" made less combined than Jeter made in one year. Of course this had very little to do with the statement that I made about Epstein and the Red Sox doing a great job with player development which is pretty much standard knowledge.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is what i said:


While Boston and the mets have more revenues than most everyone else they are still dwarfed by the Yankees. The Red Sox have been competitive because they have not only spent on FA's (though not to the degree of the yankees) but have a superior player development program. Of course having the extra cash to pay draftees over slot and the ability to re-sign its developed players matters too

Again you go off on tangents when it suits your argument. I clearly was refering to the Red Sox current managemnt teasm, namely Epstein who took over in 2003.

And the Red Sox hardly "bought" those championships, especially not the way the Yankees "bought" last years. The 2004 team had 1 mega FA signing on the team, Manny.
Do I have to rehash again?

2004 Red Sox
C- Varitek- acquired via minor league trade
1b-Millar -signed as FA- 2 million a year
2b-Bellhorn- acquired via trade was a player to be named later
SS-Reese - FA- 1 million a year
3b- Mueller - FA- 2.1 million a year
OF-kapler- FA- 750k a year
OF Damon- FA 7.1 million
Of- Manny- FA 22.5 million
others
Youlkilis -drafted
Dave Roberts-via trade
Carbera-via trade

Sp-Pedro-via trade
Sp-Shilling-via trade
Sp-Lowe-via trade
Arroyo- waiver claim
Wakefield- FA 4 million
Foulke -FA 3.5 million

Outside of manny all the other FA's that they "bought" made less combined than Jeter made in one year. Of course this had very little to do with the statement that I made about Epstein and the Red Sox doing a great job with player development which is pretty much standard knowledge.

No Manny , no rings chuck , it's that simple , they don't sign him , the curse is still in tact

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

They have 16800000 this year and the yankees have 21300000.

When you factor in that the yankees have to pay four aging hall of famers/borderline hall of famers 63,000,000 combined, the payroll isn't really that different.

What a joke. Here is what you said. I like how you make out like the yankees are somehow rewarding their "aging" players like they arent worthy of their contracts and they are simply being good guys. Funny I recall Jeter, Riveria, and Petitte all being named to the all star game last week. What would they have to pay to replace those players with All star calibur players?