The Boss has passed.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Among other things, he established the precedence for meddlesome and capricious ownership as well as the 'buy' a championship mentality that has irreparably disrupted fan allegiance continuity.

Not to mention that he exploited the geographical advantage to the extreme wherein the balance of the sport was forever changed resulting in the big market/small market mess that baseball is in now.

Perhaps that is "good business" for him and the Yankees but it didn't result in an overall positive for the sport and as I said in a previous post, his own meddlesome behavior prevented things from being a whole lot worse.

What we want for sports is usually not exactly what would we want for society in general but socialism in leagues like the NFL and the NBA works a whole lot better for the sport and all the teams than it does in baseball. The mismanagement of the Yankees for most of the 80's and the early part of the 90's prevented them from dominating for much longer than they should have coming out of the 70's and lulled baseball into thinking that not sharing virtually all revenues would not result in the mess that it became.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to mention that he exploited the geographical advantage to the extreme wherein the balance of the sport was forever changed resulting in the big market/small market mess that baseball is in now.

Perhaps that is "good business" for him and the Yankees but it didn't result in an overall positive for the sport and as I said in a previous post, his own meddlesome behavior prevented things from being a whole lot worse.

What we want for sports is usually not exactly what would we want for society in general but socialism in leagues like the NFL and the NBA works a whole lot better for the sport and all the teams than it does in baseball. The mismanagement of the Yankees for most of the 80's and the early part of the 90's prevented them from dominating for much longer than they should have coming out of the 70's and lulled baseball into thinking that not sharing virtually all revenues would not result in the mess that it became.

again you make no mention of the other team in NY that outspent nearly every other team in baseball over the last 30 yrs and has 1 championship to show for it , spending $$$ doesn't guarnatee anything

you guys gotta be kidding with this small market stuff , during george's tenure , small market teams won in the 70's 80' s 90's and 00's

take the orioles for example , is it george's fault that the have fallen into the abyss ...... or is it the lack of commitment from baltimore's ownership to spending $$$ to get better

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

again you make no mention of the other team in NY that outspent nearly every other team in baseball over the last 30 yrs and has 1 championship to show for it , spending $$$ doesn't guarnatee anything

you guys gotta be kidding with this small market stuff , during george's tenure , small market teams won in the 70's 80' s 90's and 00's

take the orioles for example , is it george's fault that the have fallen into the abyss ...... or is it the lack of commitment from baltimore's ownership to spending $$$ to get better

The Orioles are a great example of what i am talking about. They have actually spent more money than they should have based on revenues but havent won because they spent the money poorly.

The reason that the Yankees didn't win more championships was because of George. The late 90's teams were built during the era when George was banned. The latest yankee teams were built during a period when George was no longer calling the shots. This is not a coincidence.

[Cannon Shell]

The poor showings in the 1980s and 1990s would soon change. Steinbrenner hired Howard Spira to uncover damaging information on Winfield and was subsequently suspended from day-to-day team operations by Commissioner Fay Vincent when the plot was revealed. This turn of events allowed management to implement a coherent acquisition/development program without owner interference. General Manager Gene Michael, along with manager Buck Showalter, shifted the club's emphasis from high-priced acquisitions to developing talent through the farm system. This new philosophy developed key players such as outfielder Bernie Williams, shortstop Derek Jeter, catcher Jorge Posada, and pitchers Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera.

The only Championships that had Stienbrenners fingerprints on them were the first two which were for a large part part due to Free Agent signings like Reggie and Catfish Hunter, among the first big money free agent signings.

[slotdirt]

God rest his soul, but dang, was Catfish Hunter just not that good. Worst modern starting pitcher in the HOF, easily.

Detroit isn't a small market team, for what it's worth. Neither are Boston or the Florida Marlins or the Mets, all teams that have won World Series titles in the Steinbrenner era. Toronto is a freaking huge city, albeit Canadian. Philly is what, like fourth largest media market? Atlanta is huge. The only legitimate small market/small payroll team to win the World Series since the Twins in '91 are the Diamondbacks, and I don't recall their payroll being small in 2001.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

God rest his soul, but dang, was Catfish Hunter just not that good. Worst modern starting pitcher in the HOF, easily.

This is debatable. He was not only good but for a 5 year period (1971-1975) extremely good. During that time his record:
111-49
2.65 era
190 starts/96 CG
1.027 whip

He won a single Cy Young but finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th during that time as well.

He won 20 games 5 times in a row (I know wins aren't a great measure but 5 in a row in rare in baseball history)

He is remembered in an unkind light because his last three years he was not very good because of injuries no doubt brought on by the insane number of innings he threw the last year in Oakland and first 2 in NY. He doesn't rank among the very best pitchers in history but he certainly deserved to be inducted.

As for the worst pitcher in modern history, that may be a little harsh
he was a better pitcher or at least as good as:
Phil Niekro
Don Drysdale
Waite Hoyt
Fergie Jenkins
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Don Sutton
Early Wynn

[slotdirt]

Get out of town. All of those guys had superior bodies of work to Hunter, and about a dozen guys who aren't in the HOF also do. Catfish Hunter is firmly esconced in the minds of most baseball experts (read: non-Yankee fans) as clearly the least deserving modern pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

[Crown@club]

........................Yrs.........W-L.........ERA.......CG........SHO........ Whip
Don Sutton 23.....324-256...... 3.26...... 178....... 58......... 1.1425
Catfish Hunter 15.....224-166...... 3.26...... 181....... 42......... 1.1342
Jim Bunning 17.....224-184...... 3.27...... 151....... 40......... 1.1789
Clark Griffith 21.....237-146...... 3.31...... 337....... 22......... 1.3127
Fergie Jenkins 19.....284-226...... 3.34...... 267....... 49......... 1.1419
Lefty Gomez 14.....189-102...... 3.34...... 173....... 28......... 1.3524
Phil Niekro 24.....318-274...... 3.35...... 245....... 45......... 1.2681
Robin Roberts 19.....286-245...... 3.41...... 305....... 45......... 1.1697
Burleigh Grimes 19.....270-212...... 3.53...... 314....... 35......... 1.3653
Early Wynn 23.....300-244...... 3.54...... 290....... 49......... 1.3291
Waite Hoyt 21.....237-182...... 3.59...... 226....... 26......... 1.3397
Jesse Haines 19.....210-158...... 3.64...... 208....... 24......... 1.3498
Ted Lyons 21.....260-230...... 3.67...... 356....... 27......... 1.3482
Red Ruffing HOF 22.....273-225...... 3.8........ 335....... 45......... 1.3409

Took Drysdale and Perry out as I figure they are better pitchers. I would put Catfish on par with Sutton. Better than the POS Bunning. Better than Jenkins, Niekro, Robin Roberts.

But I look at this and wonder how in the heck guys like Clark Griffith, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Jessie Haines, Ted Lyons and Red Ruffing are in the HOF?

I guess Early Wynn is in because of the magical number of 300 Wins.

[pointman]

As a lifelong Yankee fan, I had times that I loved and hated Steinbrenner. However, the one constant was his will to win championships. Whether it is good or bad for the game, it has been good to be a Yankee fan. RIP to George and to Bob Sheppard as well.

[the_fat_man]

With all his money he couldn't BUY more than 80 years? No unfair advantage here?

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

I think HIS negatives out weighed ALL he accomplished as a business man.......being very SUCCESSFUL!

R.I.P. George

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to mention that he exploited the geographical advantage to the extreme wherein the balance of the sport was forever changed resulting in the big market/small market mess that baseball is in now.

Perhaps that is "good business" for him and the Yankees but it didn't result in an overall positive for the sport and as I said in a previous post, his own meddlesome behavior prevented things from being a whole lot worse.

What we want for sports is usually not exactly what would we want for society in general but socialism in leagues like the NFL and the NBA works a whole lot better for the sport and all the teams than it does in baseball. The mismanagement of the Yankees for most of the 80's and the early part of the 90's prevented them from dominating for much longer than they should have coming out of the 70's and lulled baseball into thinking that not sharing virtually all revenues would not result in the mess that it became.

chuck you can talk about all this domination in the late 90's and early part of this century that you want , but , if you take Rivera out of the equation and say put him on the red sox or the braves , the yankees don't have 4 rings in 5 years , it's really quite that simple how much that one player was worth for the yankees and when he goes in a few years let's see how much they win in the big spots in the playoffs when they have a lead going into the 8th inning

football is the #1 sport in america there is no question about that , 16 games vs 162 games has a lot to do with that part of the equation

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

chuck you can talk about all this domination in the late 90's and early part of this century that you want , but , if you take Rivera out of the equation and say put him on the red sox or the braves , the yankees don't have 4 rings in 5 years , it's really quite that simple how much that one player was worth for the yankees and when he goes in a few years let's see how much they win in the big spots in the playoffs when they have a lead going into the 8th inning

football is the #1 sport in america there is no question about that , 16 games vs 162 games has a lot to do with that part of the equation

You arent going to get it so just go back to WFAN.

So football became the number one sport because of the number of games played? Why did it take so long then?

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You arent going to get it so just go back to WFAN.

So football became the number one sport because of the number of games played? Why did it take so long then?

too many night games killed baseball

there were more days games in the 50's and 60's

[slotdirt]

Luis Tiant has better numbers than Catfish Hunter. Sorry, no plaque for him in Hall of Very Good. Likewise Jim Kaat. Bert Blyleven was five times the pitcher Jim Hunter was, yet he's barely getting anywhere near the requisite vote for enshrinement.

Let's just face facts that because Hunter was a Yankee during some very good seasons in the late 70's (not unlike Waite Hoyt and others who were inducted as sort of a team honor from those awesome 20's teams), he is in the Hall of Fame. There's really no other logical reason to have included him, great three or four seasons or not. I'm really most surprised Roger Maris never saw the Hall as his career arc really wasn't much different as a hitter than Hunter's was as a pitcher.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Luis Tiant has better numbers than Catfish Hunter. Sorry, no plaque for him in Hall of Very Good. Likewise Jim Kaat. Bert Blyleven was five times the pitcher Jim Hunter was, yet he's barely getting anywhere near the requisite vote for enshrinement.

Let's just face facts that because Hunter was a Yankee during some very good seasons in the late 70's (not unlike Waite Hoyt and others who were inducted as sort of a team honor from those awesome 20's teams), he is in the Hall of Fame. There's really no other logical reason to have included him, great three or four seasons or not. I'm really most surprised Roger Maris never saw the Hall as his career arc really wasn't much different as a hitter than Hunter's was as a pitcher.

I really don't think that hunter's election had anything to do with his yankee career. If anything those were his worst years and lead people like you to detract from his overall career. He was the best pitcher on the best team in baseball, one that won three WS in a row in a very controversial manner. He won 20 games 5 times in a row during that time. He was a very good "clutch" ie playoff pitcher.

Catfish Hunter is hardly the worst player in the hall of Fame. He wasnt far off from winning 4 Cy Youngs in a row. You want to kill him because his career was much shorter than a lot of other HoF pitchers and hence the few not so great years weigh his numbers down. But he was consistently great for 10 years. That's HoF worthy. Explain Rick Ferrell.

[slotdirt]

Ferrell was Veterans Committee. Those selections shouldn't even count since that was basically authorized cronyism for the first 50 or so years it was in existence. You can't compare that with the writers vote, where I'd put Hunter in a group with Jim Rice and Andre Dawson for worst overall selections.

The Veterans Committee also stuck Tinkers-Evers-Chance in the HOF as well as such luminaries as the aforementioned Roger Breshnaham in Cooperstown.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

too many night games killed baseball

there were more days games in the 50's and 60's

This is what you are going to hang your hat on?

You must be pulling my leg...

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is what you are going to hang your hat on?

You must be pulling my leg...

chuck if you don't think the game has grown over the last 30 -35 yrs , you are mistaken

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

chuck if you don't think the game has grown over the last 30 -35 yrs , you are mistaken

Dude what are you talking about? On one hand you say that night games killed the game and in the next post you say the game has grown?


All sports have grown in the last 35 years except boxing and horseracing.