When does the $1,000,000 a day start at MTH?

[NTamm1215]

I hope Monmouth's card for Saturday is a bit more "elite" than Friday's slate, which has one allowance race. The rest of it is Evangeline by the Shore.

NT

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I hope Monmouth's card for Saturday is a bit more "elite" than Friday's slate, which has one allowance race. The rest of it is Evangeline by the Shore.

NT

Evangeline is a nice betting track!! Good full fields and if you look good can find nice prices. One of my favorite betting tracks in fact it helped me bail out on derby day.

[alysheba4]

saturday i hit the elusive pick 5......for 150 bucks

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

saturday i hit the elusive pick 5......for 150 bucks

Me too. It's not a redboard when it pays so small. I was proud of myself for placing a wager that lasted two hours for a return of 2.7-1.

NT

[alysheba4]

yeah, that was a huge let down.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Me too. It's not a redboard when it pays so small. I was proud of myself for placing a wager that lasted two hours for a return of 2.7-1.

NT

Why such a hater Nick? Your anomosity towards everything Monmouth Park comes across loud and clear.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by jms62

Why such a hater Nick? Your anomosity towards everything Monmouth Park comes across loud and clear.

Find every post I've made about Monmouth Park and post it here and we'll see.

What I've said about Monmouth is that I think the "Elite Summer Meet" is a one year thing, which is my opinion. I've also said that Jersey breds running for 80k is nauseating, which is my opinion. I've also said that Friday's card absolutely blows from a standpoint of quality horses participating. Considering the numerous statements made by people far and wide about Monmouth wrecking the Belmont and Saratoga meets, I disagreed then and I more than disagree now.

I enjoyed an afternoon at Monmouth the day before the Belmont and have always found it to be one of the best racetracks to visit in the entire country. If my opinions enumerated above constitute loud and clear animosity then I guess I'm just a disgruntled racing fan.

NT

[robfla]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I hope Monmouth's card for Saturday is a bit more "elite" than Friday's slate, which has one allowance race. The rest of it is Evangeline by the Shore.

NT

I would think UN Day will be a little more "elite"...It looks like there is about 1.6 MILLION up for grabs on Saturday alone.( ~1MM in the two stakes ).

[blackthroatedwind]

It's interesting to merge this discussion with the one also taking place about Arlington. According to that conversation, Arlington can't fill allowance races. How can they if Monmouth, with all this money to give away, struggles to do this as well.

The whole thing is a great eye opener as to why racing isn't as good ( everywhere ) as many think it should be.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's interesting to merge this discussion with the one also taking place about Arlington. According to that conversation, Arlington can't fill allowance races. How can they if Monmouth, with all this money to give away, struggles to do this as well.

The whole thing is a great eye opener as to why racing isn't as good ( everywhere ) as many think it should be.

is there a need for less tracks?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

is there a need for less tracks?

Maybe. But it's a complicated discussion. One of the problems with internet discussions, and I don't mean this as a criticism of yours, is that people tend to throw out declarations without any awareness or discussion of entire issues.

Right now there is a horse shortage, especially at the top, and this makes carding higher level racing near impossible regardless of how much money a track is willing to give away. Considering this situation, some tracks have done a remarkably good job of putting on as good a show as they do. Will contraction make things better or will it drive so many people out of the game that even with less racing these same problems exist? Is it only a " strong survive " situation? I don't necessarily think so, as there are a great deal of other factors, and one facet can't be ignored, or pushed aside, in an attempt to strengthen the other. How is the high end strengthened if it doesn't even exist?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Maybe. But it's a complicated discussion. One of the problems with internet discussions, and I don't mean this as a criticism of yours, is that people tend to throw out declarations without any awareness or discussion of entire issues.

Right now there is a horse shortage, especially at the top, and this makes carding higher level racing near impossible regardless of how much money a track is willing to give away. Considering this situation, some tracks have done a remarkably good job of putting on as good a show as they do. Will contraction make things better or will it drive so many people out of the game that even with less racing these same problems exist? Is it only a " strong survive " situation? I don't necessarily think so, as there are a great deal of other factors, and one facet can't be ignored, or pushed aside, in an attempt to strengthen the other. How is the high end strengthened if it doesn't even exist?

very valid point. When monmouth is only racing 3/4 days a week, and they still cant fill allowance races, especially with those purses, then there is a major problem.

How many higher level allowance horses do Goldophin and other oversea's racing stables buy from the US and send to Dubai? I know they've been doing this for many years now.. Is that depleting our stock or is it just a minor blip in the radar?

[blackthroatedwind]

It's not the reason but it might not be unfair to say it is a contributing factor. Don't forget, it's not just the horses they buy, but also the high quality broodmare band they have amassed, and their subsequent foals. They has definitely been a talent drain so to speak.

[Antitrust32]

or is it slots that are helping this problem? Now top level allowance horses can run at "lower level" tracks because the purses are the same. So it dilutes the competition too much because the owners/trainers are just entering in spots they think they'll win?? (not that I blame them)

Or the stakes horses these days are so bad, that a horse that really should be an allowance type are running in G3's??

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Maybe. But it's a complicated discussion. One of the problems with internet discussions, and I don't mean this as a criticism of yours, is that people tend to throw out declarations without any awareness or discussion of entire issues.

Right now there is a horse shortage, especially at the top, and this makes carding higher level racing near impossible regardless of how much money a track is willing to give away. Considering this situation, some tracks have done a remarkably good job of putting on as good a show as they do. Will contraction make things better or will it drive so many people out of the game that even with less racing these same problems exist? Is it only a " strong survive " situation? I don't necessarily think so, as there are a great deal of other factors, and one facet can't be ignored, or pushed aside, in an attempt to strengthen the other. How is the high end strengthened if it doesn't even exist?

One of the biggest problems that high end racing at the major tracks faces is the accumulation of the vast majority of the elite stock in a few barns. I know I have harped on this to no end but it is something that is never discussed (at least publicly) in any meeting or forum that talks about the problems of racing. I have no idea what the solution is (at least a realistic one) but I find it hard to believe that no one in the industry even thinks it worthy of discusion. A lot of horses that used to be allowance horses in NY (or NJ under these circumstances) are racing at Woodbine or CD or Delaware where their trainers maintain different divisions. So Todd Pletcher for example may have 6 nw1 sprint horses of varying ability. He will split his best two between a race at Bel and Mth, the other 4 will be raced at Delaware or CD or even a place like Woodbine. If the 6 horses were in training in NY with different trainers they would probably all run in NY with the horses that arent quite as good eventually dropping into higher priced claimers. The destruction of the mid to upper level claiming ranks is perhaps a greater tragedy than just the thinning of the allowance races. What those claiming races did was give the racing secretary good solid races every few weeks with familar horses running up and down the ladder as opposed to what they have to offer now like a 25000 nw2 6 furlongs on the turf race or worse.

Racing was a much better sport when there was a clear division among its tracks. And as the lines blurred because of slots purses and other alternate revenue sources, racing secretaries needed to expand their conditions to keep up with these other tracks. Obviously in 20/20 hindsight that was a mistake but it is easy fo me to say when I am not sitting behind the counter with three races made and needing to make 7 more.

What can happen to begin to right the ship is NYRA to finally get their own slots deal cooking and to raise it pots back to the premier levels again and for the monmouth experiment to be continued at a slightly lower level. This will put NY racing back in its place as king with monmouth and its shorter meets a second alternatitive. Doing so would make PHA and Delaware atractive pursewise but far less so than the other two. Clear lines would be drawn through the divisions

NYRA
Mth
Del/Pha
MD racing/Penn

Of course that does not address the original issue that i brought up which is a few trainers controlling all the stock. But it would be much harder to convince an owner to go run at Delaware in a 37k pot when NY was offering an 80k race or Mth was offering 60k. Of course this wouldnt solve the problem or bring back the claiming ladder but it would be better than what we have now.

[blackthroatedwind]

I have little argument with any of that Chuck.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What can happen to begin to right the ship is NYRA to finally get their own slots deal cooking and to raise it pots back to the premier levels again and for the monmouth experiment to be continued at a slightly lower level. This will put NY racing back in its place as king with monmouth and its shorter meets a second alternatitive. Doing so would make PHA and Delaware atractive pursewise but far less so than the other two. Clear lines would be drawn through the divisions

NYRA
Mth
Del/Pha
MD racing/Penn

Of course that does not address the original issue that i brought up which is a few trainers controlling all the stock. But it would be much harder to convince an owner to go run at Delaware in a 37k pot when NY was offering an 80k race or Mth was offering 60k. Of course this wouldnt solve the problem or bring back the claiming ladder but it would be better than what we have now.

Couldn't agree more with this. The blurring that has taken place has thrown the sport, at least regionally, into a form of shock. The delineation between the tracks is almost a necessity to bring a form of order to bear.

The complete joke of it is that New York has had the right for slot machines for years, one of the great boondoggles of racing business, ever...the politically-induced feet dragging has been a collossal dagger.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

One of the biggest problems that high end racing at the major tracks faces is the accumulation of the vast majority of the elite stock in a few barns. I know I have harped on this to no end but it is something that is never discussed (at least publicly) in any meeting or forum that talks about the problems of racing. I have no idea what the solution is (at least a realistic one) but I find it hard to believe that no one in the industry even thinks it worthy of discusion. A lot of horses that used to be allowance horses in NY (or NJ under these circumstances) are racing at Woodbine or CD or Delaware where their trainers maintain different divisions. So Todd Pletcher for example may have 6 nw1 sprint horses of varying ability. He will split his best two between a race at Bel and Mth, the other 4 will be raced at Delaware or CD or even a place like Woodbine. If the 6 horses were in training in NY with different trainers they would probably all run in NY with the horses that arent quite as good eventually dropping into higher priced claimers. The destruction of the mid to upper level claiming ranks is perhaps a greater tragedy than just the thinning of the allowance races. What those claiming races did was give the racing secretary good solid races every few weeks with familar horses running up and down the ladder as opposed to what they have to offer now like a 25000 nw2 6 furlongs on the turf race or worse.

Racing was a much better sport when there was a clear division among its tracks. And as the lines blurred because of slots purses and other alternate revenue sources, racing secretaries needed to expand their conditions to keep up with these other tracks. Obviously in 20/20 hindsight that was a mistake but it is easy fo me to say when I am not sitting behind the counter with three races made and needing to make 7 more.

What can happen to begin to right the ship is NYRA to finally get their own slots deal cooking and to raise it pots back to the premier levels again and for the monmouth experiment to be continued at a slightly lower level. This will put NY racing back in its place as king with monmouth and its shorter meets a second alternatitive. Doing so would make PHA and Delaware atractive pursewise but far less so than the other two. Clear lines would be drawn through the divisions

NYRA
Mth
Del/Pha
MD racing/Penn

Of course that does not address the original issue that i brought up which is a few trainers controlling all the stock. But it would be much harder to convince an owner to go run at Delaware in a 37k pot when NY was offering an 80k race or Mth was offering 60k. Of course this wouldnt solve the problem or bring back the claiming ladder but it would be better than what we have now.

Chuck, do you think that changing the way conditions are done would help at all such as how harness does their conditions, i.e. non-winners of X amount in the last 6 starts?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Maybe. But it's a complicated discussion. One of the problems with internet discussions, and I don't mean this as a criticism of yours, is that people tend to throw out declarations without any awareness or discussion of entire issues.

Right now there is a horse shortage, especially at the top, and this makes carding higher level racing near impossible regardless of how much money a track is willing to give away. Considering this situation, some tracks have done a remarkably good job of putting on as good a show as they do. Will contraction make things better or will it drive so many people out of the game that even with less racing these same problems exist? Is it only a " strong survive " situation? I don't necessarily think so, as there are a great deal of other factors, and one facet can't be ignored, or pushed aside, in an attempt to strengthen the other. How is the high end strengthened if it doesn't even exist?

How do you feel the cost of ownership has impacted the number of horses being run? We don't hear much on this issue, but if the cost of ownership could be decreased would it logically follow that more horses would be put into training? It seems to me the little guy is being forced out of the game or into partnerships in order to participate as an owner which could impact on the size of the stock available to race.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by pointman

How do you feel the cost of ownership has impacted the number of horses being run? We don't hear much on this issue, but if the cost of ownership could be decreased would it logically follow that more horses would be put into training? It seems to me the little guy is being forced out of the game or into partnerships in order to participate as an owner which could impact on the size of the stock available to race.

I think this is a huge issue. The last year or so my sense has been that the shortage is more of owners than horses (although even when there are enough horses, there are never enough "good" ones). If horses have problems, given today's economics, they are more likely retired than brought back from injury. The economy has also impacted the claiming game, as guys seem to be more willing to jam horses than in the past; if they lose a horse, it's one less mouth to feed.