6/19-20 (BEL): New York S. (G2); Mike Lee S.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I believe he is being pointed, theoretically, to the Jim Dandy and Travers.

Let me ask you, being anyone, if he was your horse, given his talent as well as the respective talent in this division, would you be running him in the NY Derby next?

Im not so sure about going long. If he was my horse I would go Amsterdam next. I am not nearly as high on him as some others, and I loved General Maximus yesterday, but Friend or For did all the dirty work and was strong late.

[richard]

Kimmel should respect the Big Apple Triple more when he speaks, imo. We'll have to add up the numbers after the Albany H. at the spa and see if ForF has exceeded the potential winnings of sweeping the series at that time . Purse money available for the NY Derby and Albany H totals $250,000 plus a $100,000 if swept. Plus about $20,000 in breeder awards .

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty folks happy he's not in the series any more . Should make for a bigger field in the derby.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by richard

Kimmel should respect the Big Apple Triple more when he speaks, imo. We'll have to add up the numbers after the Albany H. at the spa and see if ForF has exceeded the potential winnings of sweeping the series at that time . Purse money available for the NY Derby and Albany H totals $250,000 plus a $100,000 if swept. Plus about $20,000 in breeder awards .

I don't think the Bromans need to apologize for their " respect " for the NY Bred program. They seem to do quite a lot to support it.

From an expected value standpoint, it would be lunacy NOT to run in the Jim Dandy.

[richard]

My beef is with Kimmel's comments, not the Broman's. We'll see after the Albany H how much "bigger and better" things really got .

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by richard

My beef is with Kimmel's comments, not the Broman's. We'll see after the Albany H how much "bigger and better" things really got .

You're not listening.

Stop acting as though this is some personal affront to the NY bred program and think about it logically.

[richard]

I guess you're right . I should actually say "Thank You" for not running in the rest of the triple . It does open up more opportunity for other horses .

And I'm starting to see the light now ... because the $100,000 bonus is not up for grabs I wonder if any of the Mile Lee horses will be in the NY Derby . I could be an interesting field with lots of betting opportunites . Thank you all for the enlightening dialogue and I agree FoF deserves his promotion.

[Linny]

This is a series that was swept once. FoF is 3 for 3 sprinting and is by a G1 route winning son of AP Indy o/o an Unbridled mare. I recall Unbridled Star as a pretty nice filly so like most of the Broman's NY breds, this one is very well bred to go a distance.
With the crop as shoddy as it is, it makes sense to take a shot in open company. If he were to sweep the Triple, it's worth about $250k. Running well (even without winning) in major events like the Jim Dandy and Travers will establish FoF near the top of the division. As Andy said, if he come up short in the Jim Dandy, the King's Bishop is a fallback option and hat is a serious "stallion makers" race. As a horse owned by the breeder (who also campaigned and, I think still owns the sire and dam) establishing this horse's level within his crop might be more important that sweping the Triple.
In a perfect world, I'd love to see FoF have a try at a 1 turn mile at Belmont or even a race like the 2 turn Long Branch at MTH, before the Jim Dandy, but they just don't run them like that any more.
I don't think that Kimmel is snubbing or "dissing" the NY program, but he's right, graded races are "bigger and better" than restricted stakes. He's got a colt he thinks is graded quality. If he were hiding him away in the statebred races everyone would be wailing about him not testing the colt.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Im not so sure about going long. If he was my horse I would go Amsterdam next. I am not nearly as high on him as some others, and I loved General Maximus yesterday, but Friend or For did all the dirty work and was strong late.

Nothing personal, but your opinion of his talent is irrelevent.

The reason you run him in the Jim Dandy, and not the Amsterdam, is that if he fails to answer the distance question you can always turn him back for the King's Bishop.....while if he answers it positively you can shoot for the Travers, which is especially inviting this year given the crop. If you run him in the Amsterdam, while you may answer the talent question, you don't answer the more important one. Given the way he has already run, he has already shown he has the prerequisite talent.

The payoff in winning certain races is not the purses. It is partly the prestige but mostly in creating a sire. In this horse's case that not only has the obvious financial rewards, but also as a homebred, it has great cache.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The payoff in winning certain races is not the purses. It is partly the prestige but mostly in creating a sire. In this horse's case that not only has the obvious financial rewards, but also as a homebred, it has great cache.

I don't know how much cache Friend or Foe would likely have as a sire. However, since he is a homebred, major stakes placings by Friend or Foe would further help the value of the female members of this family, many of which are members of the Bromans' broodmare band and from which they have already sold several pricey yearlings/2YOs.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I don't know how much cache Friend or Foe would likely have as a sire. However, since he is a homebred, major stakes placings by Friend or Foe would further help the value of the female members of this family, many of which are members of the Bromans' broodmare band and from which they have already sold several pricey yearlings/2YOs.

Not saying he's a major stallion, but didn't Friend of Foe's own sire follow a similar projected career act when he raced?

Friends Lake could do worse than standing at Airdrie in KY.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Not saying he's a major stallion, but didn't Friend of Foe's own sire follow a similar projected career act when he raced?

Friends Lake could do worse than standing at Airdrie in KY.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but the market has changed dramatically from the time Friends Lake went to the breeding shed and now. Friends Lake is probably on his way to a regional market unless his fortunes change dramatically and soon.

If a horse like Eskendereya, by a sire like Giant's Causeway, is only worth $5-10 million as a stallion prospect, it's hard to imagine Friend or Foe being particularly appealing as a son of Friends Lake. Friends Lake had the benefit of being by A.P. Indy out a Grade I winning mare. Friend or Foe would have neither of those attributes in his corner.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I don't disagree with anything you said, but the market has changed dramatically from the time Friends Lake went to the breeding shed and now. Friends Lake is probably on his way to a regional market unless his fortunes change dramatically and soon.

If a horse like Eskendereya, by a sire like Giant's Causeway, is only worth $5-10 million as a stallion prospect, it's hard to imagine Friend or Foe being particularly appealing as a son of Friends Lake. Friends Lake had the benefit of being by A.P. Indy out a Grade I winning mare. Friend or Foe would have neither of those attributes in his corner.

That's fair enough. Given your point about his pedigree, I would think that Friend Or Foe would have to exceed the accomplishments of his sire dramatically to have a shot at a KY farm.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

That's fair enough. Given your point about his pedigree, I would think that Friend Or Foe would have to exceed the accomplishments of his sire dramatically to have a shot at a KY farm.

That wouldn't be too hard.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I don't know how much cache Friend or Foe would likely have as a sire. However, since he is a homebred, major stakes placings by Friend or Foe would further help the value of the female members of this family, many of which are members of the Bromans' broodmare band and from which they have already sold several pricey yearlings/2YOs.

I agree with all of this.

What I meant ( and I realize my post/points were jumbled ) was that it would sort of have cache for the owners....that is having a homebred stallion. i.e. it would be cool for them.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I agree with all of this.

What I meant ( and I realize my post/points were jumbled ) was that it would sort of have cache for the owners....that is having a homebred stallion. i.e. it would be cool for them.

Not only that but sired by a homebred stallion. I think that Broman still has an ownership interest in Friends Lake.

"I would think that Friend Or Foe would have to exceed the accomplishments of his sire dramatically to have a shot at a KY farm."
I wouldn't be too hard to do but he certainly won't do it within the NY Triple.

[Benny Leger]

Despite running a little green in the stretch, this horse looked awfully good to me yesterday. Don't know what the BSF for the race was, but had to be real close to triple digits. If it were me...I'd follow Andy's suggestion and stretch him out in the Jim Dandy and see what happens. RM said he galloped out a strong 3/8ths after the wire without a problem. Seems to me he's earned the right to try open company on a big stage.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by richard

If he was my horse I'd probably lean toward the Jim Dandy, for example. But I'd give it a little thought before the lips start flapping .

That's not totally unfair....but you're suggesting they didn't discuss it before yesterday's race.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by richard

If he was my horse I'd probably lean toward the Jim Dandy, for example. But I'd give it a little thought before the lips start flapping .

Are you sure it was some flippant, callous remark? We don't know what tone he was using. That sort of remark is said all the time after horses win similar "stepping stone" races.

Is the Jim Dandy "bigger and better" than the NY Derby? How about running at Saratoga versus Finger Lakes?