Ahhhhh she did it!!!!

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So Z is better than Azeri, Bayakoa, Bold N' Determined, Go For Wand, Inside Information, Lady's Secret, Melair, Paseana, Personal Ensign, Princess Rooney, Riboletta, and Serena's Song? That is nuts.

I think she can certainly be mentioned with those and i think you could make a valid argument that she is better than at least some of those. No?

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think she can certainly be mentioned with those and i think you could make a valid argument that she is better than at least some of those. No?

The only ones that I would definitely mention her with are Serena's Song and Melair, but it is arguable whether she is better than Serena's Song. I will concede on Melair because her career was so short and she may have fizzled over time. The same goes for Rachel Alexandra in regards to the horses that I listed.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The only ones that I would definitely mention her with are Serena's Song and Melair, but it is arguable whether she is better than Serena's Song. I will concede on Melair because her career was so short and she may have fizzled over time. The same goes for Rachel Alexandra in regards to the horses that I listed.

How is Azeri better? I loved Azeri but i don't think you can stack her resume up against Zenyatta's.

Azeri never beat boys and she didnt win the BC classic.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How is Azeri better? I loved Azeri but i don't think you can stack her resume up against Zenyatta's.

Azeri never beat boys and she didnt win the BC classic.

True, she never beat boys. Zenyatta has never beaten males on real dirt either. I just think Azeri beat a better group of mares than Zenyatta has: Sightseek, Summer Colony, Imperial Gesture, Take Charge Lady, etc.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How is Azeri better? I loved Azeri but i don't think you can stack her resume up against Zenyatta's.

Azeri never beat boys and she didnt win the BC classic.

I think they are very comparable except in that Zenyatta has never gone east and faced the best competition. If Azeri had stayed retired how would she have been remembered? Zenyatta did beat the boys but lets face it she isnt undefeated if she doesnt have a cupcake schedule.

[Cannon Shell]

Davidowitz is clearly suffering from a horse racing version of Stockholm Syndrome where he has been held captive by the idea that Curlin was one of the top 10 horses of all time, where horses regularly retire after the TC, where campaigns like Ghostzapper's are embraced, where winning streaks are suddenly important even if they are achieved without running against top competition, where rapid fan bases whose sense of history begins with Smarty Jones become experts. He is simply sympathizing with his captors.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Davidowitz is clearly suffering from a horse racing version of Stockholm Syndrome where he has been held captive by the idea that Curlin was one of the top 10 horses of all time, where horses regularly retire after the TC, where campaigns like Ghostzapper's are embraced, where winning streaks are suddenly important even if they are achieved without running against top competition, where rapid fan bases whose sense of history begins with Smarty Jones become experts. He is simply sympathizing with his captors.

but, he wrote a book. you really need to respect his opinion more.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think they are very comparable except in that Zenyatta has never gone east and faced the best competition. If Azeri had stayed retired how would she have been remembered? Zenyatta did beat the boys but lets face it she isnt undefeated if she doesnt have a cupcake schedule.

The thing is, if she runs in the 2002 BC Classic, she has a very good shot at winning. She was in peak form at that point and that was a pretty weak BC Classic. Instead, they wait until she is past her peak and throw her to the wolves against Ghostzapper and Rosesinmay.

Still, I think Zenyatta is a better mare. I think the dirt/synthetic thing is way overblown with this one. Chuck, is there a horse out there right now besides Quality Road that you would bet even money on against her in a full field 10f race on dirt?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The thing is, if she runs in the 2002 BC Classic, she has a very good shot at winning. She was in peak form at that point and that was a pretty weak BC Classic. Instead, they wait until she is past her peak and throw her to the wolves against Ghostzapper and Rosesinmay.

Still, I think Zenyatta is a better mare. I think the dirt/synthetic thing is way overblown with this one. Chuck, is there a horse out there right now besides Quality Road that you would bet even money on against her in a full field 10f race on dirt?

Zenyatta may be better but they are comparable. Zenyatta has for the most part ducked the top competition. Azeri in the non-Lukas portion of her career ducked top competition.

Think about your last sentence and then think about her last two campaigns.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I think she can certainly be mentioned with those and i think you could make a valid argument that she is better than at least some of those. No?

maybe she is, maybe she isn't. hard to say. but i think, based on what she's done, that those putting her in such rarified air as mr. davidowitz has, is really just unbelievable.

[DaTruth]

Those who argue for Zenyatta's greatness often point to her win in the BCC. The problem with that is that when the BC was run at Santa Anita, it was not a true dirt test, as indicated by Euros running 1-2 in 2008 and Gio Ponti and a Euro running 2-3 last year.

Z's connections are doing a disservice with their creampuff schedule. I would respect her more if she came East and ran close LOSING efforts in the Whitney or Woodward or JCGC and in the BCCC than for any of her prior wins.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

Those who argue for Zenyatta's greatness often point to her win in the BCC. The problem with that is that when the BC was run at Santa Anita, it was not a true dirt test, as indicated by Euros running 1-2 in 2008 and Gio Ponti and a Euro running 2-3 last year.

Z's connections are doing a disservice with their creampuff schedule. I would respect her more if she came East and ran close LOSING efforts in the Whitney or Woodward or JCGC and in the BCCC than for any of her prior wins.

and gio certainly hasn't shown much since that race, has he? is winchester an all time great because he beat gio recently? of course not. now, it was obviously zenyattas best race competition-wise, but she didn't beat summer bird any more handily than rachel had earlier.
the streak is her claim to fame. but as i said elsewhere, consistency isn't greatness-if it was, pepper's pride would be just as great. with her winning 17, is she now better than citation? again, no.

we have so few really good horses appearing any more, which is a shame in itself. but making her out to be some type of amazing horse isn't going to fix that.