Zenyatta assigned 129 pounds for Vanity

[slotdirt]

People who bitch about Zenyatta carrying too much weight need to take a look at a history book. How much did Phar Lap carry and give in his day? Kelso? Spectacular Bid? If she's going to be considered by her fans to be an all time great, the horse needs to be treated like one.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

People who bitch about Zenyatta carrying too much weight need to take a look at a history book. How much did Phar Lap carry and give in his day? Kelso? Spectacular Bid? If she's going to be considered by her fans to be an all time great, the horse needs to be treated like one.

those were great horses..she is exceptional for her time but as ateam said
you will never be in the same page as them with the continuation of the
poly program..race vs the same ones in your back yard..peppers pride #2

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

those were great horses..she is exceptional for her time but as ateam said
you will never be in the same page as them with the continuation of the
poly program..race vs the same ones in your back yard..peppers pride #2

Because of Zenyatta's performances in the Breeders' Cup, these comparisons are really hyperbole. That being said, the manner in which her connections are campaigning her this year is truly disappointing and will tarnish her legacy if she is unable to pull off a BC Classic repeat.

[Thunder Gulch]

She is the greatest synthetic track runner in the 5 year proliferation of synthetic tracks in the US. That's about all we can feel reasonably comfortable stating. Her place among the "greats" of racing in America just can't be confirmed with the evidence we have.

[miraja2]

I'm no huge fan of Zenyatta, but I really wish people would stop mentioning her in the same sentence with that New Mexico rat. Yeah, it wasn't a very good BCC field, and yeah it was on a synthetic surface, and yeah the "top-tier" Cali fillies and mares she has pounded most of her career aren't great, but come on. She has at least been running in G1 races where any filly and mare in the country could show up to run against her, and twice they have ventured out of the state in search of actual competition. Sure we'd all like to see them do that with her more often, but they deserve at least some credit for doing it on those occasions.
Comparing her to that record-holding slug who plugged along her entire career against bottom-tier talent - even if it is just to make a point about beating up on the same competition - really just seems unfair.

They deserve nothing but derision. F.uck them.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

could it be that people are tired of hearing how fng great she is..if you have the tvg network you will hear at nausium ' i broke out my police album' whats the name of that one todd.. zenyatta m..they act as though she is the best horse in training..she is not..her accompishments will allways have an * next to it..period.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I'm no huge fan of Zenyatta, but I really wish people would stop mentioning her in the same sentence with that New Mexico rat. Yeah, it wasn't a very good BCC field, and yeah it was on a synthetic surface, and yeah the "top-tier" Cali fillies and mares she has pounded most of her career aren't great, but come on. She has at least been running in G1 races where any filly and mare in the country could show up to run against her, and twice they have ventured out of the state in search of actual competition. Sure we'd all like to see them do that with her more often, but they deserve at least some credit for doing it on those occasions.
Comparing her to that record-holding slug who plugged along her entire career against bottom-tier talent - even if it is just to make a point about beating up on the same competition - really just seems unfair.

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation. I think your post is telling in two places where you mention her running in grade 1's and her two ventures out of the state as being in search of actual competition. That is my entire point. She is an exceptional horse who hasn't really done anything exceptional except maintain an undefeated streak. While that IS an accomplishment in itself, let's not confuse that with them searching out the best competition. They have in virtually every case chosen the path of least resistance. They are chosing to roll the dice by making the BC Classic at CD the entire season. It really becomes a make or break race for her and she really doesn't deserve that. The fact that RA and Zenyatta have never met or really probably never will meet is proof being a "sportsman" ain't what it used to be. John Nerud they aren't.

[Port Conway Lane]

There is a difference in logistics when comparing east coast racing to west coast. Major stables in the east will move from Belmont in the fall to Gulfstream in the winter to Kentucky in the spring, where the big money races are.

In California there isn't a track within 2,000 miles other than Oaklawn that provides the purse money that California does.

Shirreffs isn't the only trainer staying at home where purse money is as lucrative as anywhere else. There are countless stables in the east who have graded synthetic winners staying in the east because it makes no sense to ship to California when there are races at home that offer the same money. The only difference is that Shirreffs has the highest profile horse in training.

I realize he's ducking males in California and elsewhere and I understand why.

He holds the cards. If there is a filly or mare good enough to beat Zenyatta then come out to California and prove it. She continues to defeat mediocre competition because 75% of the best synthetic fillies are staying home back east. Shirreffs is making no more of an exception in regards to shipping Zenyatta than he has done with any of his horses.

The bottom line is that Zenyatta is owned and trained in California. Is it fair to the horse and fans that they are choosing the easy road ? Of course not. If Zenyatta was trained by (fill in the blank) back east she would be running the majority of her races in New York. Would anyone expect an east coast trainer to seek out the best horses in California ?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation.

Exactly. The streak is meaningless to me if she's just beating the same horses at the same tracks over and over. Hell, I'd prefer a horse like Perfect Drift to her. He lost a lot, but he danced every dance and consistently ran well and that means more to me than some stupid streak against soft competition.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation. I think your post is telling in two places where you mention her running in grade 1's and her two ventures out of the state as being in search of actual competition. That is my entire point. She is an exceptional horse who hasn't really done anything exceptional except maintain an undefeated streak. While that IS an accomplishment in itself, let's not confuse that with them searching out the best competition. They have in virtually every case chosen the path of least resistance. They are chosing to roll the dice by making the BC Classic at CD the entire season. It really becomes a make or break race for her and she really doesn't deserve that. The fact that RA and Zenyatta have never met or really probably never will meet is proof being a "sportsman" ain't what it used to be. John Nerud they aren't.

I agree with most of what you say here, and the absurd praise heaped on the horse by her legion of fans/worshipers grates on my nerves as well. Basically I'm saying that I think her level of competition IS pretty darn low, and so I'm not sure it really needs to be exaggerated in any way by her detractors. I just think that her streak is so infinitely more impressive than freakin' Pepper's Pride's that the comparison is a bit foolish. While the races Zenyatta has been running in have certainly lacked top-quality competition, they haven't been restricted to only crappy competition the way Pepper's Pride were.
I'm not trying to argue that the connections deserve a lot of praise for running the horse in the Apple Blossom twice, I am merely saying that I do think they deserve some amount of credit for it. In what was supposed to be the biggest race of the year this year, they showed up while the other guys didn't. Does that make them great "sportsmen?" No. But it seems like some on here argue as if those two trips to Oaklawn never happened in a rush to denigrate her level of competition. Again, I don't see why that is necessary. Most of the time the connections certainly have played it safe, but they did go to Oaklawn twice to take on Ginger Punch and Rachel Alexandra, and at least in those two instances, they weren't playing it safe. I certainly understand the urge to tear the mare down given how annoying most of Zenyatta's fans are around here, but I guess I am still trying to enjoy her career despite her fans' idiocy and the softness of her competition.