I always thought Shaughnessy was an idiot but...

[docicu3]

[quote=Cannon Shell;640202]Does anybody actually watch the games? Have you seen Boston play lately? What matchup does boston have an advantage at? Williams and Rondo is basically a wash because Williams is such a better shooter with 3 pt range and a 90% FT though Rondo is now an elite PG. You want Pierce against leBron? Think the 2010 version of Garnett is better than Jamison/Funny hair guy/Hickson combo? Shaq/Ilguakgas or Perkins? I'll give you Allen on the offensive end but simply because Cleveland's SG's arent asked to do much on that end because of James, not because he is the Ray Allen of 2006.


Yeah, I've seen every minute of this Heat series where the Celts have simply been the better team every game. Teams with older stars coast Chuck when they know the best chance of them surviving is to play the best seeds like Labron's boys as early as possible in the playoffs. Doc is able to get the most out of what guys are playing well and what combinations work. Rhondo is a wild card who may play like an all pro or a hack who blows lay ups. He's gifted and useless all in the same day at times. Having seen generations of this team find ways to beat younger and supposedly better players time and time again. I like the Celts chances to give this a run but assuming both get there to round 2 easily, if the Celts lose two in Cleveland to start the series you may be right about losing a short series but if the green split or better they have the talent to finish it which an awful lot of teams don't have. Sit back and enjoy it....

[dalakhani]

I will give you odds on that series Doc. You want +200?

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I will give you odds on that series Doc. You want +200?

Please don't be offended but if I end up playing this it will be with the same bookie I've known since '75 in college. Let's see where this is when they get ready to actually play before we assume everything will be the same for this series. The Celts need to close tomorrow to get enough rest to be ready. I don't understand why everyone wants to assume Clev. is unbeatable. Far too much made of a guy hitting half and three quarter shots for the TV cameras and not enough about playoff experience and so far his lack of it.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Please don't be offended but if I end up playing this it will be with the same bookie I've known since '75 in college. Let's see where this is when they get ready to actually play before we assume everything will be the same for this series. The Celts need to close tomorrow to get enough rest to be ready. I don't understand why everyone wants to assume Clev. is unbeatable. Far too much made of a guy hitting half and three quarter shots for the TV cameras and not enough about playoff experience and so far his lack of it.

Not offended at all doc.

I don't think cleveland is unbeatable so much as I think Boston is done. Any of those other semifinalists (assuming atl and orlando get in) would beat Boston this year in my opinion.

Their window was short.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Not offended at all doc.

I don't think cleveland is unbeatable so much as I think Boston is done. Any of those other semifinalists (assuming atl and orlando get in) would beat Boston this year in my opinion.

Their window was short.

Plus PG1985 declared them a dynasty after they won the title which kinda sealed their inevitable downfall

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Please don't be offended but if I end up playing this it will be with the same bookie I've known since '75 in college. Let's see where this is when they get ready to actually play before we assume everything will be the same for this series. The Celts need to close tomorrow to get enough rest to be ready. I don't understand why everyone wants to assume Clev. is unbeatable. Far too much made of a guy hitting half and three quarter shots for the TV cameras and not enough about playoff experience and so far his lack of it.

Cleveland is not unbeatable but there is no logical reason to think Boston can beat them 4 times out of 7.

If you watch the NBA and cant appreciate LeBron James...

There is no bigger misnomer in team sports that a guy isnt the "best player" till he wins a championship. It is so illogical that I cant believe smart people buy into it. This isnt Tennis or Golf. What team drafts a player, front office moves, injuries, coaching (bad or good) and the other guys on the team dictate who wins championships. Kobe doesnt win a title without Shaq or without Chris Chris Wallace. Jordans run isnt as dominant if Pippen stays with the Sonics instead of getting traded to Chicago on draft day, Garnett never wins anything without pierce and Allen and getting traded to the celtics. Say he got traded to NJ?

You wanna say leBron hasnt won anything? Check out the Easterm Conference Champions of 2006-07.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006%E2...valiers_season

Getting to the Finals with that crew is a far greater accomplishment than 99% of NBA championship teams. Not one player on that team was a regular starter on another team after leaving. Not one. Of the few guys who are still plying, none of them start. He basically made the NBA finals with a team where noone else was even an NBA starter. I think he has established himself.

[docicu3]

Getting to the Finals with that crew is a far greater accomplishment than 99% of NBA championship teams. Not one player on that team was a regular starter on another team after leaving. Not one. Of the few guys who are still plying, none of them start. He basically made the NBA finals with a team where noone else was even an NBA starter. I think he has established himself.[/quote]


Tell me you didn't waste all that bandwidth trying to drum up kudos for Labron beating the Wiz without Arenas and Butler, the comatose NJ Nets 41-41, and the Pistons on their way to two years of non playoff appearance stature. Sorry I'm not buying it until the guy shows me something other than one finals appearance they got swept in.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Getting to the Finals with that crew is a far greater accomplishment than 99% of NBA championship teams. Not one player on that team was a regular starter on another team after leaving. Not one. Of the few guys who are still plying, none of them start. He basically made the NBA finals with a team where noone else was even an NBA starter. I think he has established himself.

Tell me you didn't waste all that bandwidth trying to drum up kudos for Labron beating the Wiz without Arenas and Butler, the comatose NJ Nets 41-41, and the Pistons on their way to two years of non playoff appearance stature. Sorry I'm not buying it until the guy shows me something other than one finals appearance they got swept in.[/quote]

Exactly as i said, smart guys who are blinded by the ridiclous notion that individual players arent "worthy" until they are lucky enough to land in a situation in which all the other factors add up to a championship. Cleveland without LeBron that year was a 15 win team...maybe.

Hard to believe that I have to defend Lebron James...have you seen him play?

[Cannon Shell]

[quote=docicu3;640207]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Does anybody actually watch the games? Have you seen Boston play lately? What matchup does boston have an advantage at? Williams and Rondo is basically a wash because Williams is such a better shooter with 3 pt range and a 90% FT though Rondo is now an elite PG. You want Pierce against leBron? Think the 2010 version of Garnett is better than Jamison/Funny hair guy/Hickson combo? Shaq/Ilguakgas or Perkins? I'll give you Allen on the offensive end but simply because Cleveland's SG's arent asked to do much on that end because of James, not because he is the Ray Allen of 2006.


Yeah, I've seen every minute of this Heat series where the Celts have simply been the better team every game. Teams with older stars coast Chuck when they know the best chance of them surviving is to play the best seeds like Labron's boys as early as possible in the playoffs. Doc is able to get the most out of what guys are playing well and what combinations work. Rhondo is a wild card who may play like an all pro or a hack who blows lay ups. He's gifted and useless all in the same day at times. Having seen generations of this team find ways to beat younger and supposedly better players time and time again. I like the Celts chances to give this a run but assuming both get there to round 2 easily, if the Celts lose two in Cleveland to start the series you may be right about losing a short series but if the green split or better they have the talent to finish it which an awful lot of teams don't have. Sit back and enjoy it....

The Heat are a lottery team with a superstar. If the Celtics are coasting then you better tell Doc Rivers who is playing Pierce and Rondo 40+ minutes a game. They should have lost game 3 and had Miami dead to rights before Wade went crazy. But Miami stinks...They have 1 guy who would start for Cleveland and the rest of the team couldnt break into Clevelands rotation. Beasley is a bum, O'Neil has been awful, Haslip is average at best, Joel Anthony trys hard, Q is Q (avg at best), Chalmers is probably below average, Dorell Wright??, Arroyo??

The thing is that Cleveland has the best player, better matchups, better bench, is younger, faster, more athletic, better rested, etc....And Doc Rivers aint turning into Chuck Daly.

[docicu3]

[quote=Cannon Shell;640215][quote=docicu3;640207]

The Heat are a lottery team with a superstar. If the Celtics are coasting then you better tell Doc Rivers who is playing Pierce and Rondo 40+ minutes a game.

Minutes so far in playoffs

Pierce 36.7 minutes
Allen 34.1 minutes
Garnett 35.3 minutes

James 40.5 minutes
Rondo 41.4 minutes

So not exactly as you said Chuck and yes I do think the C's coasted to exactly where they wanted to finish the regular season so they
1) maintained home court for a series and 2) got Cleveland early after that to minimize the number of games played before a max effort which they would need to challenge the Cavs......

Congrats on your previous post about LJ taking a 15 win team to the Eastern finals in 2006-2007 during the same year his own coaches went on record in amazement at how little he actually knew about the strategy of the NBA game.

He was of course a high school kid who missed playing at all at the college level so where would he learn the subtleties of the NBA game? Truth is even at this point he is a prolific scorer but remains an average midrange shooter who can jump through the roof with incredible show stopping end of quarter field goal range but is far from having excellent ball handling or passing skills. At least according to the NBA skills guru quoted below in this article.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...vin/index.html

He has more wow power than any player in the NBA game including Kobe who is a better shooter, so when LJ refines his fundamentals he will really have something but he's not there yet as his game is not polished like that of a great champion.

C's/Cavs should be a decent watch but it's not the mismatch your making it out to be.

[dalakhani]

[quote=docicu3;640302][quote=Cannon Shell;640215]

Originally Posted by docicu3

The Heat are a lottery team with a superstar. If the Celtics are coasting then you better tell Doc Rivers who is playing Pierce and Rondo 40+ minutes a game.

Minutes so far in playoffs

Pierce 36.7 minutes
Allen 34.1 minutes
Garnett 35.3 minutes

James 40.5 minutes
Rondo 41.4 minutes

So not exactly as you said Chuck and yes I do think the C's coasted to exactly where they wanted to finish the regular season so they
1) maintained home court for a series and 2) got Cleveland early after that to minimize the number of games played before a max effort which they would need to challenge the Cavs......

Congrats on your previous post about LJ taking a 15 win team to the Eastern finals in 2006-2007 during the same year his own coaches went on record in amazement at how little he actually knew about the strategy of the NBA game.

He was of course a high school kid who missed playing at all at the college level so where would he learn the subtleties of the NBA game? Truth is even at this point he is a prolific scorer but remains an average midrange shooter who can jump through the roof with incredible show stopping end of quarter field goal range but is far from having excellent ball handling or passing skills. At least according to the NBA skills guru quoted below in this article.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...vin/index.html

He has more wow power than any player in the NBA game including Kobe who is a better shooter, so when LJ refines his fundamentals he will really have something but he's not there yet as his game is not polished like that of a great champion.

C's/Cavs should be a decent watch but it's not the mismatch your making it out to be.

First of all, the article was talking about a training session two years ago. Is it fair to say that maybe, just maybe, lebron has improved since? Maybe?

Secondly, in what bizarro world does lebron not have excellent passing skills as you say? He is one of the best passers in the league. He doesn't have to go out there like Kobe Bryant and decide he isn't going to shoot for an entire quarter to get his teammates involved. Its natural to lebron. He is a pure passer.

Doc, im not trying to insult you, but what "subtleties" is lebron missing? I watch him play all the time and I can't see one particular weakness. He doesn't really have a pet move but he really doesn't need one at this point.

Is there a better player in the league? Besides Michael Jordan, have you seen a better player in the last 30 years. Larry? Magic? Okay, you have an argument...maybe. Beyond that?

The whole thing about him not having a title is incredibly weak. If he is on that lakers team last year in place of Kobe, do they win a title? If he is on that Celtic team two years ago in place of Paul Pierce, does he win a title?

[Antitrust32]

Lebron is most definately an excellent passer. One of the best. When I saw him play in High School at the Palestra in Philly (what a gym!) the skill that stood out to me the most was his great passes. He makes his team mates better. And he's a darn good defender also. The whole package!

[horseofcourse]

LeBron James is a great, great passer who posseses phenomenal court vision...you can't even argue the opposite on that one. You can certainly argue he's not a great on ball defender. He tried to guard Rose at the end of game 3 and Rose actually abused him. Rose is pretty good though. He is far from a zero on defense however.

Cannon is 100 percent dead on in his assessment of taking the 2007 team to the finals...that would to me still be a greater accomplishment than if they win a title with this team. Sasha Pavlovic started on that team. Today he can't even break the Minnesota Timberwolves rotation. Daniel Gibson played big minutes on that team...he is a better player now and isn't even in the rotation. For God's sake, Eric Snow played big minutes on that team. Larry Hughes started at Point guard.

To say LeBron's game is not polished is pretty far out there.

In the end, however, I see no evidence that the Celtics can't play with them and win multiple games in the series. Cleveland's free throw shooting will cost them one game in the series. The Cavs are a better team though.

[docicu3]

Well I'm glad that's cleared up now.....

Lebron's in Pistol Pete's class as a passer....

Dribbles better than Cousy....

Shoots better than Jerry West or Bird....

Knows more about the game than Jackson and Auerbach...

Rebounds better than Russell....

Thanks for getting my mind back on track, LeBron's not hype he's just the best ever.

[docicu3]

"To say LeBron's game is not polished is pretty far out there."....


Guilty of being "pretty far out there"....

Talented and polished are completely different skill sets. James doesn't make anyone on the Cavs better than the talents they already possess. Rhondo completely outplayed James in the series while showing that his game is becoming more versatile or polished because his shot is becoming more dependable.

James makes his team uncomfortable when his shot isn't falling. AJ has never looked worse trying to guard KG while trying to figure out when he can push his own offense.

All I kept reading was how James and his deep talented bench was going to abuse Boston. Celts would be lucky to win a game. Seems the Celts were "lucky" 4 out of the 6 games played.