Nomar retires

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Pudge I do not think the steroids helped that much. He really never put up any huge offensive numbers, he was just a really sound defensive catcher and a leader. He had a real solid career average but he was always a good hitter. It was very evident in Pudge appearence that he took only testosterone. If any of these guys knew anything they would have been running a trenbolone and a masteron and kept their lazy gains instead of waterballoning up, and then shrinking up like raisins.

Tejada had a great year without roids and hes 200 years old. Rafie its hard to say because he was on the tail end of his career when he "didn't use steorids"

The problem with a lot of these guys is that we never saw them much pre usage like we did with Bonds and Clemens. I did see Palmiero hit a monstrous HR when he played for Baltimore in Spring Training in Ft Lauderdale. Pulled down the line and probably 100 feet over the wall when it cleared. Had to be 450+, easy. That in itself means nothing but it was almost superhuman. The pitcher just kept looking out into right field like he couldnt believe it.

[The Bid]

Rafie is a tough one because he was always a very good player, not a great player, but very consistant his entire career. He got some monster numbers towards the end and we all know he used however, I would be curious to know when he started.

Guys like Mac and Bonds. those guys were using for a LOoooong time. It wasnt a year like Petite. Mac would have been very average with nothing, below average in fact. Clemens would be a first ballot hall of famer IMO regardless. He was an extreme talent. I believe Bonds was a very very good ballplayer, but when he left Pittsbrg weighing 185 he was just a really good player. Not the bonds he ended up being.

If Pete Rose isn't in the hall of fame, none of these guys should be.

Lots of guys who ended their careers being really good would be bench players without steroids.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Rafie is a tough one because he was always a very good player, not a great player, but very consistant his entire career. He got some monster numbers towards the end and we all know he used however, I would be curious to know when he started.

Guys like Mac and Bonds. those guys were using for a LOoooong time. It wasnt a year like Petite. Mac would have been very average with nothing, below average in fact. Clemens would be a first ballot hall of famer IMO regardless. He was an extreme talent. I believe Bonds was a very very good ballplayer, but when he left Pittsbrg weighing 185 he was just a really good player. Not the bonds he ended up being.

If Pete Rose isn't in the hall of fame, none of these guys should be.

Lots of guys who ended their careers being really good would be bench players without steroids.

I dont think Pettite's story was credible. People believed him because he "came clean" when others didnt but his story is rather implausable considering the supposed prevalence of use. Plus he basically did whatever Clemens told him to and followed Clemons workout schedule to a t. That being said it is impossible to really know who was better, who wasnt using, who was, etc. McGuire was a very good college player as was Bonds. Bonds was one of the very best players in the league before he became superhuman. There is no doubt that the use of steroids extended many guys careers at a high level far longer than should have been possible.

[The Bid]

Petite just seems like an honest guy to me. Not becuase of the came clean story, he just seems like a straight up kind of guy. Obviously Clemens was the catalyst there when he came to NY. I think Petite may have had a year of use and I don't even think most of these guys used the stuff correctly

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Petite just seems like an honest guy to me. Not becuase of the came clean story, he just seems like a straight up kind of guy. Obviously Clemens was the catalyst there when he came to NY. I think Petite may have had a year of use and I don't even think most of these guys used the stuff correctly

lies of omission are still lies.

What really gets lost in the steroid era is the performance of some Pitchers who we assume werent users. Greg Maddux, Pedro and Randy Johnson had some of the best seasons in baseball history directly into the teeth of the roids era.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

lies of omission are still lies.

What really gets lost in the steroid era is the performance of some Pitchers who we assume werent users. Greg Maddux, Pedro and Randy Johnson had some of the best seasons in baseball history directly into the teeth of the roids era.

Pedro HAD to be on them. not sure about Randy or Greg though.