Change of Plans for Lava Man

[Danzig]

not all horses leave europe to find easier pickings, but to find firmer ground....or to get on the dirt, like mineshaft and cigar.

[Gander]

Cigar didnt leave Europe to get on dirt. He raced quite a bit on turf before Mott decided to try dirt.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Gander

Cigar didnt leave Europe to get on dirt. He raced quite a bit on turf before Mott decided to try dirt.

Yes, that is right. Cigar started his career in California. Most if not all of his races in California were on the turf. I actually thought he was a very good turf horse here. To this day I can't figure out why he was running poorly on the turf in New York and then started running great on the dirt. I could understand if he was runing well on the grass back there and then moved up to another level on the dirt, but he was running lousy back there on the grass. It doesn't make any sense because he was a good grass horse out here. I have to think there was something more to his improvement than just moving to the dirt. I have no idea what. It could have been anything.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, that is right. Cigar started his career in California. Most if not all of his races in California were on the turf. I actually thought he was a very good turf horse here. To this day I can't figure out why he was running poorly on the turf in New York and then started running great on the dirt. I could understand if he was runing well on the grass back there and then moved up to another level on the dirt, but he was running lousy back there on the grass. It doesn't make any sense because he was a good grass horse out here. I have to think there was something more to his improvement than just moving to the dirt. I have no idea what. It could have been anything.

Cigar ran a Beyer fig around 95 in his second career start, at 6F on the dirt, after running poorly in his debut 2 1/2 months earlier ( his debut was at SA and maiden victory was at Hollywood ). He never raced again on the dirt until the allowance at Aqueduct that began the streak. He ran some OK California grass races, a bit better than his east coast efforts, but ultimately he was a dirt horse...that's all.

Not sure what you are suggesting with your post. His dirt win at Aqueduct was only three weeks after his final turf start. Are you suggesting they were cheating?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Cigar ran a Beyer fig around 95 in his second career start, at 6F on the dirt, after running poorly in his debut 2 1/2 months earlier ( his debut was at SA and maiden victory was at Hollywood ). He never raced again on the dirt until the allowance at Aqueduct that began the streak. He ran some OK California grass races, a bit better than his east coast efforts, but ultimately he was a dirt horse...that's all.

Not sure what you are suggesting with your post. His dirt win at Aqueduct was only three weeks after his final turf start. Are you suggesting they were cheating?

No, I wasn't suggesting they were cheating. I was being honest when I said I have no idea why he improved so much.

When he was in California, I thought he was in the top two or three best 3 year olds on the grass in California. I remember he ran great in an allowance race at Del Mar and I thought he was as impressive as any of the horses in the Del Mar Derby. I made a big bet on him in his next start in a stakes race on the grass up in Northern California but he didn't fire that day.

I actually made a really nice score on him in his second dirt race in New York. I saw that he had just won an allowance race by a big margin and he was stepping up into a stakes race. Since I was so high on him in California and he looked like he was back in form after that big win on the dirt, I made a big bet on him. He was a great price too. I think he was about 10-1 that day.

[blackthroatedwind]

He was 8-1 that day and I made my biggest bet of the year on him. It was the NYRA mile which was eventually renamed the Cigar Mile.

Looking at his pps it's hard to share your enthusiasm for his turf form. I was at SA when he finished second to Eastern Memories, who was OK but hardly a superstar ( I believe he was a Team Valor horse ), the day before the 1983 BC. He followed that by running 11th in the Hollywood Derby.

He was a dirt horse who for some odd reason was quickly removed from that surface after running a very good figure in breaking his maiden. Fortunately for his connections they eventually got around to running him on the right surface again.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was 8-1 that day and I made my biggest bet of the year on him. It was the NYRA mile which was eventually renamed the Cigar Mile.

Looking at his pps it's hard to share your enthusiasm for his turf form. I was at SA when he finished second to Eastern Memories, who was OK but hardly a superstar ( I believe he was a Team Valor horse ), the day before the 1983 BC. He followed that by running 11th in the Hollywood Derby.

He was a dirt horse who for some odd reason was quickly removed from that surface after running a very good figure in breaking his maiden. Fortunately for his connections they eventually got around to running him on the right surface again.

His race that I was so impressed with was the allowance race at Del Mar. It was so long ago that I don't remember what I liked about the race so much. I don't have his pps. Did he win that race? Who else was in there? Was it his first time going long?

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Cigar ran a Beyer fig around 95 in his second career start, at 6F on the dirt, after running poorly in his debut 2 1/2 months earlier ( his debut was at SA and maiden victory was at Hollywood ). He never raced again on the dirt until the allowance at Aqueduct that began the streak. He ran some OK California grass races, a bit better than his east coast efforts, but ultimately he was a dirt horse...that's all.

Not sure what you are suggesting with your post. His dirt win at Aqueduct was only three weeks after his final turf start. Are you suggesting they were cheating?

No need to discredit the great race record of Cigar. Cigar always looked like a good horse when he was in California, he just developed late. I remember him going into the gate for the Pimlico special with MaCarron up. Cigar caught my eye that day, he had good body weight(alittle belly on him) and the walk of a fit horse. The rest is history. Just my take on watching from the paddock.

The story I was told, by somone I trust a lot, years ago, was that Cigar's problem before his incredible turnaround was that he had ulcers.
I've heard that Dr. ALlday treated him for ulcers and that was when he transformed.
Ulcers are now treated regularly. Actually most good trainers will use Gastroguard to perevent them from occurring in the first place these days.
But back then very few people understood the impact that ulcers had on a horses disposition and performance. Made it hard to keep weight on them as well.

[Round Pen]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The story I was told, by somone I trust a lot, years ago, was that Cigar's problem before his incredible turnaround was that he had ulcers.
I've heard that Dr. ALlday treated him for ulcers and that was when he transformed.
Ulcers are now treated regularly. Actually most good trainers will use Gastroguard to perevent them from occurring in the first place these days.
But back then very few people understood the impact that ulcers had on a horses disposition and performance. Made it hard to keep weight on them as well.

You are 100% Correct about Cigar. Only thing I thought that was a little different I was always under the Impression that Dr. Jerry Johnson treated him buy I quess they both could have

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The story I was told, by somone I trust a lot, years ago, was that Cigar's problem before his incredible turnaround was that he had ulcers.
I've heard that Dr. ALlday treated him for ulcers and that was when he transformed.
Ulcers are now treated regularly. Actually most good trainers will use Gastroguard to perevent them from occurring in the first place these days.
But back then very few people understood the impact that ulcers had on a horses disposition and performance. Made it hard to keep weight on them as well.

Didn't know that, despite being a Cigar fan. Thanks for the info.

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The story I was told, by somone I trust a lot, years ago, was that Cigar's problem before his incredible turnaround was that he had ulcers.
I've heard that Dr. ALlday treated him for ulcers and that was when he transformed.
Ulcers are now treated regularly. Actually most good trainers will use Gastroguard to perevent them from occurring in the first place these days.
But back then very few people understood the impact that ulcers had on a horses disposition and performance. Made it hard to keep weight on them as well.

That would make sense to me. I couldn't believe that it was the switch to the dirt alone.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

No need to discredit the great race record of Cigar. Cigar always looked like a good horse when he was in California, he just developed late. I remember him going into the gate for the Pimlico special with MaCarron up. Cigar caught my eye that day, he had good body weight(alittle belly on him) and the walk of a fit horse. The rest is history. Just my take on watching from the paddock.

Who was discrediting him? He simply was a better dirt horse than turf horse by a great deal. Are you disputing that? He didn't " just develop late ". If you actually look at his race record, not only would you know that McCarron did NOT ride him in the Pimlico Special, but you would also know that he ran MANY lengths faster on the dirt just weeks after his mediocre ( at best ) turf efforts.

Here's an idea....read what people post and throw your f'n agenda out the window. This kind of garbage is getting more than a little tiresome.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who was discrediting him? He simply was a better dirt horse than turf horse by a great deal. Are you disputing that? He didn't " just develop late ". If you actually look at his race record, not only would you know that McCarron did NOT ride him in the Pimlico Special, but you would also know that he ran MANY lengths faster on the dirt just weeks after his mediocre ( at best ) turf efforts.

Here's an idea....read what people post and throw your agenda out the window. This kind of garbage is getting more than a little tiresome.

The comment was from memory. Not all of us has to be perfectly right all the time. Life must be pretty dull to have the racing form for wall paper.

Cigar had alot of different jocks and I guess I made a mistake.

You were the one that brought up the cheating and Cigar.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Cigar ran a Beyer fig around 95 in his second career start, at 6F on the dirt, after running poorly in his debut 2 1/2 months earlier ( his debut was at SA and maiden victory was at Hollywood ). He never raced again on the dirt until the allowance at Aqueduct that began the streak. He ran some OK California grass races, a bit better than his east coast efforts, but ultimately he was a dirt horse...that's all.

Not sure what you are suggesting with your post. His dirt win at Aqueduct was only three weeks after his final turf start. Are you suggesting they were cheating?

I guess someone else wrote, Are you suggesting they were cheating?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

I guess someone else wrote, Are you suggesting they were cheating?

My question was clearly in response to a comment by another poster, who responded to me, and only someone looking for trouble would even attempt to make the claims that you did.

And furthermore, you butted in looking for a fight and then wrote more incorrect information, which I can now see from this series of posts by you is your MO.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

My question was clearly in response to a comment by another poster, who responded to me, and only someone looking for trouble would even attempt to make the claims that you did.

And furthermore, you butted in looking for a fight and then wrote more incorrect information, which I can now see from this series of posts by you is your MO.

Ok you win.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

not all horses leave europe to find easier pickings, but to find firmer ground....or to get on the dirt, like mineshaft and cigar.

Well, I think we can rule out dirt in Cacique's case, but I can't argue with everything you said. On the other hand I don't believe this was the case for 5YO Cacique.

Cigar never ran in Europe.

[Danzig]

hmmm...thought he did. maybe it was just turf over here....been a while!!

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

not all horses leave europe to find easier pickings, but to find firmer ground....or to get on the dirt, like mineshaft and cigar.

You left out one of the big reasons. Many leave because of the more lax medication rules over here.