Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

well on this very forum she has been compared to Peppers Pride

That's silly.. Another Parade at SA seems a bit over the top.. Are they going to televise her cover in Feb as well? lol

Breed her to Zensational + Zenyatta = Z squared lol

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by freddymo

That's silly.. Another Parade at SA seems a bit over the top.. Are they going to televise her cover in Feb as well? lol

Breed her to Zensational + Zenyatta = Z squared lol

I wonder who they breed her too, thats your expertise...I would imagine a smallish type stallion with speed, maybe a Ghostzapper or something, Smarty Jones.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

well on this very forum she has been compared to Peppers Pride

That's outrageous, Peppers Pride ran way more times each year and had more wins on dirt.

NT

[Smooth Operator]

Good thing we actually got to see Bernardini vs. Invasor a few years ago or some of you would still be arguing that that outstanding younger horse was better than the outstanding older horse.

Never got a chance to see GZ toy with SJ in '04, but wouldn't be surprised if some of you still think that SJ would've beaten him.

Truly outstanding 4 and 5-year-olds almost always get the best of outstanding 3yos (see Aff vs. SS in '78 ... Aff vs. Bid in '79, off the top of my head).

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Good thing we actually got to see Bernardini vs. Invasor a few years ago or some of you would still be arguing that that outstanding younger horse was better than the outstanding older horse.

Never got a chance to see GZ toy with SJ in '04, but wouldn't be surprised if some of you still think that SJ would've beaten him.

Truly outstanding 4 and 5-year-olds almost always get the best of outstanding 3yos (see Aff vs. SS in '78 ... Aff vs. Bid in '79, off the top of my head).

from what I gather in this thread its not about who was better, who beat who, etc...you just line up the races side by side that they ran in and see who had a better season.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Good thing we actually got to see Bernardini vs. Invasor a few years ago or some of you would still be arguing that that outstanding younger horse was better than the outstanding older horse.

Never got a chance to see GZ toy with SJ in '04, but wouldn't be surprised if some of you still think that SJ would've beaten him.

Truly outstanding 4 and 5-year-olds almost always get the best of outstanding 3yos (see Aff vs. SS in '78 ... Aff vs. Bid in '79, off the top of my head).

Agree with the premise of this post, as the development of a horse really precludes the top 3yo's to be better than their elders 90% of the time, however (1) the HoY selection isn't a hypothetical race, it's a side by side comparison of their season, (2) the 3yo's have been proven time and again to be better than the elders this year, and (3) Rachel was the first 3yo filly EVER to beat older males in a G1 dirt route. Traditional 'rules' may not apply to her.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by philcski

Rachel was the first 3yo filly EVER to beat older males in a G1 dirt route.

That is a much bigger indictment of the older males this year....who is up for top older dirt male by the way?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

from what I gather in this thread its not about who was better, who beat who, etc...you just line up the races side by side that they ran in and see who had a better season.

exactly, even though your post was probably sarcastic.. you are correct though.

Because nobody knows who's better and there is not one way to be able say "this horse is better" since they didnt run against each other. Its completely hypothetical. And everyone who thinks Z is better than Rachel could be totally wrong... and vise versa.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Good thing we actually got to see Bernardini vs. Invasor a few years ago or some of you would still be arguing that that outstanding younger horse was better than the outstanding older horse.

Never got a chance to see GZ toy with SJ in '04, but wouldn't be surprised if some of you still think that SJ would've beaten him.

Truly outstanding 4 and 5-year-olds almost always get the best of outstanding 3yos (see Aff vs. SS in '78 ... Aff vs. Bid in '79, off the top of my head).

God it must throw a wrench in your logic -- since I was as steadfastly on the Invasor over Bernardini wagon before they ever raced as I am on the Rachel over Zenyatta wagon now.

Weird how analysis works, eh?

To boot, like Anti said, that has nothing to do with anything, really, just saying your convenient "thank god!" doesn't really do much for lots of people.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by philcski

(3) Rachel was the first 3yo filly EVER to beat older males in a G1 dirt route. Traditional 'rules' may not apply to her.

No she was not ....

Busher at three defeated older males TWICE in 1945..

On dirt ... AT 10 furlongs...

Being that grading races was post 1970, you have to interpret what the Arlington and Washington Handicaps were--50,000 dollar races in the 1940s which attracted the best, as can be seen in the roster of winners and contestants over time ... G1 ...

She carried high weight by the scale in the Washington Handicap and knocked off Armed, Calumet star and future HOY--not a Macho Again type ..

She also won by daylight in both races, and ultimately HOY ...

[slotdirt]

Busher? I'm guessing Twilight Tear and Gallorette comparisons can't be too far behind.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

God it must throw a wrench in your logic -- since I was as steadfastly on the Invasor over Bernardini wagon before they ever raced as I am on the Rachel over Zenyatta wagon now.

Weird how analysis works, eh?

To boot, like Anti said, that has nothing to do with anything, really, just saying your convenient "thank god!" doesn't really do much for lots of people.

Well, one out of two really isn't that bad, spencer


And yes, I'm under no delusions here … I know many of the lemmings had their (simple) minds made up about how they were gunna cast those HotY ballots when they saw RA handle some really horrible fillies and a bunch of mediocre (at best) colts in the first half of the year.

Exact same thing happened in '04 with the young Jones colt. Thankfully sanity prevailed in the end that year.

Can't say the same about '97, though, when these misguided voters made arguably the biggest blunder in Eclipse award history by handing HotY to some overrated 2yo.


There is one silver lining in all this, though … it will be much more satisfying when the reigning HotY gets beat in next year's BCC … if she even makes it to that great contest, that is.

Hell, it could even top the glorious exposure of the 'roidless (and helpless) Curlin at the '08 BC...

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Well, one out of two really isn't that bad, spencer


And yes, I'm under no delusions here … I know many of the lemmings had their (simple) minds made up about how they were gunna cast those HotY ballots when they saw RA handle some really horrible fillies and a bunch of mediocre (at best) colts in the first half of the year.

Exact same thing happened in '04 with the young Jones colt. Thankfully sanity prevailed in the end that year.

Can't say the same about '97, though, when these misguided voters made arguably the biggest blunder in Eclipse award history by handing HotY to some overrated 2yo.


There is one silver lining in all this, though … it will be much more satisfying when the reigning HotY gets beat in next year's BCC … if she even makes it to that great contest, that is.

Hell, it could even top the glorious exposure of the 'roidless (and helpless) Curlin at the '08 BC...

Thats a pretty strong accusation, you have proof?? I would like to say it was a piece of **** second rate surface that doesnt belong in racing caused a very good horse to look mediocre.
Or was Tiago that much of a better racehorse than Curlin

It's nauseating reading this thread but not as nauseating as the next season of Jockeys when Gary Stevens and Mike Smith have a lightweight moment and cry over a bottle of wine about Zenyatta.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

It's nauseating reading this thread but not as nauseating as the next season of Jockeys when Gary Stevens and Mike Smith have a lightweight moment and cry over a bottle of wine about Zenyatta.

If that is true that's 1000x more nauseating than this thread.



NT

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If that is true that's 1000x more nauseating than this thread.



NT

Smith and Stevens....would drink most here right under the table

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

[/u]

Thats a pretty strong accusation, you have proof?? I would like to say it was a piece of **** second rate surface that doesnt belong in racing caused a very good horse to look mediocre.
Or was Tiago that much of a better racehorse than Curlin

Did you see Curlin's 2 races prior to last yrs Classic?

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by CSC

Did you see Curlin's 2 races prior to last yrs Classic?

and?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

and?

He looked great huh...

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by CSC

Did you see Curlin's 2 races prior to last yrs Classic?

This is Asumussen, shouldn't it just be assumed all his horses are on something illegal....as Byk said give them the benefit of doubt until there is reason not to....with this guy he has more reasons than anyone the past decade.