McLaughlin with 3 positives; Gets 30 day ban..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Yeah I put that one right on the tape for you to tap in.

Edit: I'm sure Cannon shell's win % would perk up from the fall out. He's had a couple 2nds I think that may have been wins...

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

How do you get horses with talent? The HorseTalent Depot?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

How do you get horses with talent? The HorseTalent Depot?

Trick rich owners into thinking I will cheat if I want to but can really train if i choose not to cheat?

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Trick rich owners into thinking I will cheat if I want to but can really train if i choose not to cheat?

Chuck: You are like the Derek Jeter of horse racing. Good for you to have morals!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Gander

Chuck: You are like the Derek Jeter of horse racing. Good for you to have morals!

that may have been the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me! Wish I had his black book skills.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Trick rich owners into thinking I will cheat if I want to but can really train if i choose not to cheat?

Who did you learn that from Mr Squeaky?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

I always wanted to know the answer to this question from a Trainer like yourself Chuck, Trainers that stick within the rules....what goes on in the head of horsemen when you line up against a Aubrey Cody or Brett Calhoun horse before the gates even open? Is it one of exasperation at times...

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

I always wanted to know the answer to this question from a Trainer like yourself Chuck, Trainers that stick within the rules....what goes on in the head of horsemen when you line up against a Aubrey Cody or Brett Calhoun horse before the gates even open? Is it one of exasperation at times...

On what basis are you inferring that Brett Calhoun is a cheater?

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

On what basis are you inferring that Brett Calhoun is a cheater?

NT

I'm inferring he has had extraordinary win %'s at one or more times during his career. I think you can use common sense to speculate how he does it, at worse raising a Spockian eyebrow is healthy IMO when one pumps money into this game on a regular basis.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm inferring he has had extraordinary win %'s at one or more times during his career. I think you can use common sense to speculate how he does it, at worse raising a Spockian eyebrow is healthy IMO when one pumps money into this game on a regular basis.

Putting BWS and Autrey on the same plateau is ridiculous. Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating, especially when you deal with the type of stock Calhoun does.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Putting BWS and Autrey on the same plateau is ridiculous. Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating, especially when you deal with the type of stock Calhoun does.

NT

Let's put it this way, with what we have seen recently any Trainer who has gaudy numbers will be looked at with some interest. I agree with you on this point, the few that play fairly shouldn't be penalyzed from a perspective viewpoint, but the reality now is most look at the game with some scepticism.

The term 'juicer' is so mainstream now that everyone who follows the game will probably come up with the same 5 Trainers in their minds right away.

[ELA]

These discussions are circular at best for a variety of reasons. Let me preface my comments by saying I am defending no one. Period. I am in this for the sport, for the game that I am passionate about.

So, you have the label of "cheater" -- Dutrow being mentioned here. You want to call him a cheater, OK. Who is next? The next guy comes up positive one time, for X, is he a cheater? I'll bet to some people he is and to others he's not. I'll also bet it has something to do with "I met him and he's a nice guy" or "my friend has horses with him and says he's a super guy" and everything else along those lines. Next -- two positives? Three? The label is part of the problem here. Clenbuterol? Etorphine? Something really exotic?

With Dutrow, or some of the other "bad guys" -- there is never an excuse. Never. It's not allowed. It's a burn them at the stake mentality. But when one of the nice guys comes up positive, every excuse in the world is put forth. It's natural, we defend who we like, care about, etc. Sometimes we see the same thing with victimization.

We've seen this time and time again. Some people have asked for unform medication rules -- how about uniform prosecution, persecution, penalization or whatever else is going to happen in this sport?

Eric

[Gander]

Originally Posted by ELA

These discussions are circular at best for a variety of reasons. Let me preface my comments by saying I am defending no one. Period. I am in this for the sport, for the game that I am passionate about.

So, you have the label of "cheater" -- Dutrow being mentioned here. You want to call him a cheater, OK. Who is next? The next guy comes up positive one time, for X, is he a cheater? I'll bet to some people he is and to others he's not. I'll also bet it has something to do with "I met him and he's a nice guy" or "my friend has horses with him and says he's a super guy" and everything else along those lines. Next -- two positives? Three? The label is part of the problem here. Clenbuterol? Etorphine? Something really exotic?

With Dutrow, or some of the other "bad guys" -- there is never an excuse. Never. It's not allowed. It's a burn them at the stake mentality. But when one of the nice guys comes up positive, every excuse in the world is put forth. It's natural, we defend who we like, care about, etc. Sometimes we see the same thing with victimization.

We've seen this time and time again. Some people have asked for unform medication rules -- how about uniform prosecution, persecution, penalization or whatever else is going to happen in this sport?

Eric

Good post. 100% on.
Can you imagine if Dutrow had the kind of Saratoga meet Linda Rice did and then went as cold as a block of ice at Belmont? Love the excuses made for her too, like the lack of turf sprints at Belmont Park. As if 48 races arent enough.

[phystech]

Originally Posted by ELA

So, you have the label of "cheater" -- Dutrow being mentioned here. You want to call him a cheater, OK. Who is next?
Eric

I love the "guilt by relation" play by some.

Because Rick has been accused of cheating, then Tony and Chip must do the same.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating,

It does in the world of horse handicappers. Some don't even have to see real horses or watch any races, they can tell by sheet numbers.

(If only sheet numbers were that accurate ... we'd all have a much higher win percentage

[ELA]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Putting BWS and Autrey on the same plateau is ridiculous. Simply a high winning percentage should not earn a trainer allegations of cheating, especially when you deal with the type of stock Calhoun does.

NT

I think the reality is that it does. I think owners who lose often automatically label high % winning trainers as cheaters. I see it, I hear it, first hand. I think other trainers sometimes do. And, I think handicappers often do as well. Some are right, some are wrong, and some have no idea what they are talking about.

For the most part, I still think in this business there is a "where there's smoke, there's fire" mentality.

Eric

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ELA

I think the reality is that it does. I think owners who lose often automatically label high % winning trainers as cheaters. I see it, I hear it, first hand. I think other trainers sometimes do. And, I think handicappers often do as well. Some are right, some are wrong, and some have no idea what they are talking about.

For the most part, I still think in this business there is a "where there's smoke, there's fire" mentality.

Eric

The guy from Woodbine that trains Hollywood Hit, Terry Jordan is an example of where there was smoke there was fire, you knew something was amiss but didn't have the ammo to say it publically at the time, most knowledgable horseplayers know when something is up by watching how horses perform day in day out.

In his case his horses were winning at a ridiculous rate of 50%(maybe higher I don't have the exact % needless to say it was eye catching) up until that horse tested positive, one of the leading Trainer's at the time was Scott Farlie who was winning at a mere 20% in comparison, there is no way a Trainer should be that far ahead statistically given a genuine sampling of horses running.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by ELA

I think the reality is that it does. I think owners who lose often automatically label high % winning trainers as cheaters. I see it, I hear it, first hand. I think other trainers sometimes do. And, I think handicappers often do as well. Some are right, some are wrong, and some have no idea what they are talking about.

For the most part, I still think in this business there is a "where there's smoke, there's fire" mentality.

Eric

Right, I'm saying that it shouldn't. Should everyone who regularly plays Aqueduct right now believe that Mike Hushion is cheating?

It's a generalization that's made that's unfair IMO and the more it's propagated, specifically by bringing in a trainer with a clean record like was done in this thread (Calhoun), the worse it will get.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I always wanted to know the answer to this question from a Trainer like yourself Chuck, Trainers that stick within the rules....what goes on in the head of horsemen when you line up against a Aubrey Cody or Brett Calhoun horse before the gates even open? Is it one of exasperation at times...

Sure it is frustrating but I keep hoping that the dopes in charge (no pun intended) will finally bridge the gap a bit and the OWNERS who knowingly support the multiple offenders will stop accepting what really amounts to dirty money. The problem with this topic is that positive tests can widely vary in degrees of seriousness and intent yet all seem to fall into a catagory based more upon the likability factor than the revelant evidence.

Short acting bronchodialoters are not only performance enhancing but show absolute intent. These weren't mistakes. The only mistake was getting caught.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

My win % has far more to do with my willingness to actually run horses and the distinct lack of talent of most of said horses than it does about drugs. It has been pretty common knowledge that they were giving something to the horses on the way to the paddock. There are a few on this board who I told this to years ago.

How do they hide the nebulizer for this drug? It has no efficacy when given orally or when absorbed through the mucus membranes (lets say they place it in the mouth).

If this is the drug, they are nebulizing as close to walkover to the pre-race holding as possible (as the drug effect is so short). I can only think they would be trying to give COPD horses an advantage after their pre-race clenbuterol withdrawal, but it sure wouldn't be much with this.

BTW, this drug has been shown not to have any change on exercise ability. It's not much alone.