11/11 ATR: The Great HOTY Debate

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Who ever voted for him the first time wasn't thinking rationally

Can't help yourself, can ya'

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Can't help yourself, can ya'

Its ok Bob, you're not the only one regretting your vote

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks.

She wasn't favorite.

Stardom Bound was favored over her - and than Justwhistledixie after that.

She should have been a prohibitive favorite though.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Its ok Bob, you're not the only one regretting your vote

Obama has been far too much of a corporate democrat for my taste.

It's not like he was running against Kucinich though.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

She wasn't favorite.

Stardom Bound was favored over her - and than Justwhistledixie after that.

She should have been a prohibitive favorite though.

OK, people with half a brain thought she was the favorite over Stardom Bound.

Justwhistledixie didn't really show up onto the scene until February in the Davona Dale... she started her 2009 campaign on the AQU inner track in a 6F mini-stake.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

Because the objective at that point was the Kentucky Oaks?

At the start of the year she was the prohibitive favorite for the KY Oaks. No one in their right mind would think she would have gone into the end of the season as the Breeders Cup CLASSIC favorite. The objective at the time was completed... in record fashion, no less. Her KY Oaks may have been the best performance I've ever seen at Churchill Downs, and that's saying a LOT.

I want to re-address this point.

Yes you made a good valid point Phil, however I think it's also worth mentioning these 2 races didn't take a whole lot out of her, this was a reason what many of her backers brought up when they reference she had a long year so it was perfectly alright stopping on Sept 5, if this is the case then what about the other horses that run and prep for the derby and show up in the BC yearly.

So yes you made a good point, but it isn't a valid reason why she didn't run in the BC.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Best Performance By A Mare On Carpet Fibers----handed out by Pollard's Vision disciple Stewart Scott.

Nice!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

I want to re-address this point.

Yes you made a good valid point Phil, however I think it's also worth mentioning these 2 races didn't take a whole lot out of her, this was a reason what many of her backers brought up when they reference she had a long year so it was perfectly alright stopping on Sept 5, if this is the case then what about the other horses that run and prep for the derby and show up in the BC yearly.

So yes you made a good point, but it isn't a valid reason why she didn't run in the BC.

not sure why you cant process this thought so we'll say it for the one millionth time

The VALID reason.. and the reason since about May 7th when Jess Jackson bought her... that she didnt run in the Breeders Cup.. is that her owner said she would not run on artificial surfaces.

Why you cant understand that valid reason is beyond me.. especially since its been in the news for like 6 months now.

It would be one thing if Rachel was pointing to the BC the whole time and skipped a few days before because she didnt want to run against Z.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

there's your valid reason already! and its perfectly valid! look at how the dirt horses did in the BC!

[Cannon Shell]

Rachael Alexandra certainly had a better overall campaign than Zenyatta. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think otherwise. Beyer numbers, who would beat who, who ducked or didnt duck and the other nonsense aside, the argument should be who had the more impressive body of work in 2009 when you take a step back and look again.

You can make the case that Zenyatta's top 'moment' was slightly better than Rachaels, it certainly is more timely. But emotion or sentiment shouldn't really be a deciding factor in determining who had the superior 2009.

IMO JJ is the worst kind of hypocrite and perhaps the worlds richest phony but his horse deserves the award because she simply had a better, more complete and certainly more compelling year than Zenyatta did.

I believe circumstances have made RA's light shine a little brighter than perhaps it should have but I can't get over the fact that Zenyatta's races just weren't that good prior to her BC run. Plus my contention that this was the worst BC Classic field in it's history makes RA a clear winner.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rachael Alexandra certainly had a better overall campaign than Zenyatta. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think otherwise. Beyer numbers, who would beat who, who ducked or didnt duck and the other nonsense aside, the argument should be who had the more impressive body of work in 2009 when you take a step back and look again.

You can make the case that Zenyatta's top 'moment' was slightly better than Rachaels, it certainly is more timely. But emotion or sentiment shouldn't really be a deciding factor in determining who had the superior 2009.

IMO JJ is the worst kind of hypocrite and perhaps the worlds richest phony but his horse deserves the award because she simply had a better, more complete and certainly more compelling year than Zenyatta did.

I believe circumstances have made RA's light shine a little brighter than perhaps it should have but I can't get over the fact that Zenyatta's races just weren't that good prior to her BC run. Plus my contention that this was the worst BC Classic field in it's history makes RA a clear winner.

It would have been a nice field for the turf classic

Originally Posted by Kasept

Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..

But they are and this whole debate is.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

not sure why you cant process this thought so we'll say it for the one millionth time

The VALID reason.. and the reason since about May 7th when Jess Jackson bought her... that she didnt run in the Breeders Cup.. is that her owner said she would not run on artificial surfaces.

Why you cant understand that valid reason is beyond me.. especially since its been in the news for like 6 months now.

It would be one thing if Rachel was pointing to the BC the whole time and skipped a few days before because she didnt want to run against Z.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

there's your valid reason already! and its perfectly valid! look at how the dirt horses did in the BC!

Thats true, but there are other races after 9/5 not run on poly and more specifically not BC races. There were plenty of spots she could have run in here in NY, yet they decided to retire her. She looked exhausted after her last race and I commend them for calling it quits and giving her a break. But dont use the poly or BC argument as for why she didnt race. I doubt very much we would have seen her in the BC if it was on dirt here at Belmont or at Churchill.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Justwhistledixie didn't really show up onto the scene until February in the Davona Dale... she started her 2009 campaign on the AQU inner track in a 6F mini-stake.

JWD was the favorite over RA in the future wagering for the KY Oaks.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

As evidenced by the "vote" on this board and many other racing sites, many think this is a close call. There's a difference between having a strong opinion and telling someone else that they reached a different conclusion because they lack the ability to think rationally.

or it could be that many watch four races a year, and are aware that rachel won one of them, and zenyatta another.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

JWD was the favorite over RA in the future wagering for the KY Oaks.

Correct... however that pool was in March. Granted, it was only by $1500, but I still don't know why.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

"where it was" - Yea when the races are run at Santa Anita they should not count, kinda like when the crew for Mineshaft decided he was just to cool to run at Santa Anita, racing at the place is not worth the trip for you eastern guys, and heck that was on dirt even!!

"who it came against" - cut it any way you want, that was a better field than RA ran againt all year. Her best field was probably the Woodward, and this field drown that one. I guess her race on an off track, not fast dirt mind you but an off track in NJ is a close second.

Also when separating two records for Horse of the Year it should factor in the impact a horse had on a sport, and I think in 20 years unless RA wins the Classic, America's defining race for quality, next year that they will still be talking about Zenyatta and not RA. This takes nothing away from her but fillies winning or competing in triple crown races, well seems to the rage the last few years.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

"where it was" - Yea when the races are run at Santa Anita they should not count, kinda like when the crew for Mineshaft decided he was just to cool to run at Santa Anita, racing at the place is not worth the trip for you eastern guys, and heck that was on dirt even!!

"who it came against" - cut it any way you want, that was a better field than RA ran againt all year. Her best field was probably the Woodward, and this field drown that one. I guess her race on an off track, not fast dirt mind you but an off track in NJ is a close second.

Also when separating two records for Horse of the Year it should factor in the impact a horse had on a sport, and I think in 20 years unless RA wins the Classic, America's defining race for quality, next year that they will still be talking about Zenyatta and not RA. This takes nothing away from her but fillies winning or competing in triple crown races, well seems to the rage the last few years.

Before you say this years BC Field would drown the horses RA beat

Horses like Gio Ponti and Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle might very well finish up the track on a dirt course for all you or anyone knows, especially Gio Ponti since there has to be a reason why Gio has been kept on grass when dirt racing is more widely available here in the States.

Would you take Macho Again or Gio Ponti in a fairly run dirt race at 10 furlongs? I would take the proven dirt horse.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Before you say this years BC Field would drown the horses RA beat

Horses like Gio Ponti and Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle might very well finish up the track on a dirt course for all you or anyone knows, especially Gio Ponti since there has to be a reason why Gio has been kept on grass when dirt racing is more widely available here in the States.

Would you take Macho Again or Gio Ponti in a fairly run dirt race at 10 furlongs? I would take the proven dirt horse.

What's your point?

Last I checked Zenyatta's race wasn't on dirt, so not sure how that's relevant at all.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

What's your point?

Last I checked Zenyatta's race wasn't on dirt, so not sure how that's relevant at all.

I just think the fact that Zenyatta won the Classic and therefore "beat better horses" than RA is a weak argument to make because they are difficult to compare to the horses RA defeated.

You might as well consider Gio Ponti for horse of the year if you are going to consider Zenyatta. Synthetics are a separate surface and if we are to treat synthetics in this regard, then you should give consideration to turf horses for HOY as well.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Gander

Thats true, but there are other races after 9/5 not run on poly and more specifically not BC races. There were plenty of spots she could have run in here in NY, yet they decided to retire her. She looked exhausted after her last race and I commend them for calling it quits and giving her a break. But dont use the poly or BC argument as for why she didnt race. I doubt very much we would have seen her in the BC if it was on dirt here at Belmont or at Churchill.

I was responding to CSC saying "that wasnt a valid reason for not running in the BC" so yes my post was about the BC.

First off, she's not retired. She will be running in 2010. Big difference! And if she was spent and needed a month or two of eating grass time.. well it takes time to get fit again after that.

I dont blame the connections at all. Her campaign was a tough as anyone's.