Who Is Horse Of The Year?

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by CSC

I've always maintained what RA had accomplished up until Sept 5 was HOY worthy, my beef if you can call it a beef is I only wish she had raced the entire year where most horses are primed for a championship run, or more precisely in the JCGC or the BC. Up until that point she was the deserved choice for HOY barring a performance that would supercede later in the yr. This is the chance her connections took when you call it a year with almost 4 months left on the racing calendar, well to be more accurate 3 months and 3 weeks, I don't see the hate in this thinking, I saw that performance from Zenyatta and she would be my vote not only because I believe she would have beaten RA in the Classic had she run but the way in which she won the race, which was decisive.

Rachel started in January, Zenyatta started in... you can't hold it against Rachel.

Also, assuming who would beat who is weak when you're talking about recognizing results. It's not the "Horse of the Year If X Would Have Happened."

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Rachel started in January, Zenyatta started in... you can't hold it against Rachel.

Also, assuming who would beat who is weak when you're talking about recognizing results. It's not the "Horse of the Year If X Would Have Happened."

Sept 5 to Nov 6 would have given her ample time to get ready, she is 1 for 1 on poly may I remind everyone, yes I know JJ's feelings on synth but you play with the hand that all the other owners were dealt also, you don't see this crap from Summer Bird's connections for instance and you see the yr he has had, many still think he should be racing in Japan in Dec? Why is RA that fragile they couldn't fit one more race in, nevertheless I would have been satisfied if she ran one more time after the Woodward and that was the JCGC, but for whatever the reasons one want's to believe, she was protected the rest of the year.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

Sept 5 to Nov 6 would have given her ample time to get ready, she is 1 for 1 on poly may I remind everyone, yes I know JJ's feelings on synth but you play with the hand that all the other owners were dealt also, you don't see this crap from Summer Bird's connections for instance and you see the yr he has had, many still think he should be racing in Japan in Dec? Why is RA that fragile they couldn't fit one more race in, nevertheless I would have been satisfied if she ran one more time after the Woodward and that was the JCGC, but for whatever the reasons one want's to believe, she was protected the rest of the year.

Have you applied the same scrutiny to Zenyatta's schedule?

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Have you applied the same scrutiny to Zenyatta's schedule?

NT

It doesn't absolve why RA didn't run after Sept 5, why do so many of her backers choose to ignore this?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

It doesn't absolve why RA didn't run after Sept 5, why do so many of her backers choose to ignore this?

she ran 8 very hard races all year and the trainer even said she was spent after the Woodward and needed a break. Why do you choose to ignore that?

How many times has SB ran this year?

How about Zenyatta?

You will find 8 is a pretty solid number of races and also the year starts on Jan 1st, not on Sept 5th.

[parsixfarms]

Here's Ghostzapper's 4-race Horse of the Year campaign in 2004, which started in July:


Breeders' Cup Classic Powered by Dodge (gr. I, 1 1/4 miles in 1:59.02, NTR, equal top weight, by 3, defeating Roses in May, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, Azeri, Personal Rush, Birdstone, Dynever, Fantasticat, Funny Cide, Bowman's Band, Newfoundland, Freefourinternet).

Woodward S (gr. I, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Saint Liam, Bowman's Band, Seek Gold, Newfoundland, Midway Road, Presidentialaffair).

Tom Fool H (gr. II, 7 furlongs, top-weighted, by 41/4, defeating Aggadan, Unforgettable Max, Lion Tamer).

Philip H. Iselin Breeders' Cup H (gr. III, 1 1/8 miles, top-weighted, by 103/4, defeating Presidentialaffair, Zoffinger, Private Lap).


In 2004, Saint Liam was not an "established" horse, and the fields for the Tom Fool and Iselin were really weak. Considering the fact that she's a female, is Zenyatta's campaign substantively less?

I just don't get this notion that Zenyatta was somehow "obliged" to ship East. When Personal Ensign raced in 1988 (in races like the Molly Pitcher against modest fields), I don't recall anyone suggesting that she needed to ship to California to validate her campaign. (And, yes, they had planes back then also.)

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Here's Ghostzapper's 4-race Horse of the Year campaign in 2004, which started in July:


Breeders' Cup Classic Powered by Dodge (gr. I, 1 1/4 miles in 1:59.02, NTR, equal top weight, by 3, defeating Roses in May, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, Azeri, Personal Rush, Birdstone, Dynever, Fantasticat, Funny Cide, Bowman's Band, Newfoundland, Freefourinternet).

Woodward S (gr. I, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Saint Liam, Bowman's Band, Seek Gold, Newfoundland, Midway Road, Presidentialaffair).

Tom Fool H (gr. II, 7 furlongs, top-weighted, by 41/4, defeating Aggadan, Unforgettable Max, Lion Tamer).

Philip H. Iselin Breeders' Cup H (gr. III, 1 1/8 miles, top-weighted, by 103/4, defeating Presidentialaffair, Zoffinger, Private Lap).


In 2004, Saint Liam was not an "established" horse, and the fields for the Tom Fool and Iselin were really weak. Considering the fact that she's a female, is Zenyatta's campaign substantively less?

I just don't get this notion that Zenyatta was somehow "obliged" to ship East. When Personal Ensign raced in 1988 (in races like the Molly Pitcher against modest fields), I don't recall anyone suggesting that she needed to ship to California to validate her campaign. (And, yes, they had planes back then also.)

I dont understand how bringing up GZ campaign helps Zenyatta??

Rachels whole year was so much better than Z. Z's one race was great. Z should for sure be the "Breeders Cup HOY" and Rachel should for sure be "actual HOY"

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Here's Ghostzapper's 4-race Horse of the Year campaign in 2004, which started in July:


Breeders' Cup Classic Powered by Dodge (gr. I, 1 1/4 miles in 1:59.02, NTR, equal top weight, by 3, defeating Roses in May, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, Azeri, Personal Rush, Birdstone, Dynever, Fantasticat, Funny Cide, Bowman's Band, Newfoundland, Freefourinternet).

Woodward S (gr. I, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Saint Liam, Bowman's Band, Seek Gold, Newfoundland, Midway Road, Presidentialaffair).

Tom Fool H (gr. II, 7 furlongs, top-weighted, by 41/4, defeating Aggadan, Unforgettable Max, Lion Tamer).

Philip H. Iselin Breeders' Cup H (gr. III, 1 1/8 miles, top-weighted, by 103/4, defeating Presidentialaffair, Zoffinger, Private Lap).


In 2004, Saint Liam was not an "established" horse, and the fields for the Tom Fool and Iselin were really weak. Considering the fact that she's a female, is Zenyatta's campaign substantively less?

I just don't get this notion that Zenyatta was somehow "obliged" to ship East. When Personal Ensign raced in 1988 (in races like the Molly Pitcher against modest fields), I don't recall anyone suggesting that she needed to ship to California to validate her campaign. (And, yes, they had planes back then also.)

She's not obliged to ship East at all. Look at their campaigns...forget the this one dodged this or that. Look at the races themselves. One substantial race for Zen doesn't do enough to overtake Rachel.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Here's Ghostzapper's 4-race Horse of the Year campaign in 2004, which started in July:


Breeders' Cup Classic Powered by Dodge (gr. I, 1 1/4 miles in 1:59.02, NTR, equal top weight, by 3, defeating Roses in May, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, Azeri, Personal Rush, Birdstone, Dynever, Fantasticat, Funny Cide, Bowman's Band, Newfoundland, Freefourinternet).

Woodward S (gr. I, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Saint Liam, Bowman's Band, Seek Gold, Newfoundland, Midway Road, Presidentialaffair).

Tom Fool H (gr. II, 7 furlongs, top-weighted, by 41/4, defeating Aggadan, Unforgettable Max, Lion Tamer).

Philip H. Iselin Breeders' Cup H (gr. III, 1 1/8 miles, top-weighted, by 103/4, defeating Presidentialaffair, Zoffinger, Private Lap).


In 2004, Saint Liam was not an "established" horse, and the fields for the Tom Fool and Iselin were really weak. Considering the fact that she's a female, is Zenyatta's campaign substantively less?

I just don't get this notion that Zenyatta was somehow "obliged" to ship East. When Personal Ensign raced in 1988 (in races like the Molly Pitcher against modest fields), I don't recall anyone suggesting that she needed to ship to California to validate her campaign. (And, yes, they had planes back then also.)

So what other 8-8 horse that raced outside of the box all year long in ultra impressive fashion did Ghostzapper have to go up against on the west coast to solidify his claim as horse HOY?

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I just don't get this notion that Zenyatta was somehow "obliged" to ship East. When Personal Ensign raced in 1988 (in races like the Molly Pitcher against modest fields), I don't recall anyone suggesting that she needed to ship to California to validate her campaign. (And, yes, they had planes back then also.)

When was Personal Ensign HOY?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by CSC

It doesn't absolve why RA didn't run after Sept 5, why do so many of her backers choose to ignore this?

So had she raced once in the months of May, June, August, October and November that would make her more eligible in your mind?

[knickslions2]

Wow presently 52 votes for each. How I wish they could have raced each other

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

It doesn't absolve why RA didn't run after Sept 5, why do so many of her backers choose to ignore this?

WHO CARES?

That would be an issue if she didn't run but once or twice all season. She danced many of the major dances and they happened to be dances that female horses seldom, if ever, and in one case, never had done victoriously. That is a campaign of epic proportions.

Does this really boil down to Rachel potentially having been in the JCGC setting the same ridiculously slow pace that Tizway and QR did over a quagmire of a track and beating up on your boy Summer Bird again? If so then you're grasping at straws as to why she's not the HOY.

This has nothing to do with Zenyatta needing to ship east as some have alluded to here. It has to do with what races she ran in when in her cozy home state. By the time Zenyatta ran in the Clement Hirsch Rachel had already done memorable things. At that point her connections needed to try the Pacific Classic or a similar race against males.

NT

[randallscott35]

Hopefully:

--The fact that Assmussen is the trainer and Jackson is the owner won't affect the vote

--There is no doubt that there are people who dislike the connections of Rachel and like the connections of Zenyatta

--In a close vote, that could make the difference...How sad.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Hopefully:

--The fact that Assmussen is the trainer and Jackson is the owner won't affect the vote

--There is no doubt that there are people who dislike the connections of Rachel and like the connections of Zenyatta

--In a close vote, that could make the difference...How sad.

Its affecting the vote on here.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Hopefully:

--The fact that Assmussen is the trainer and Jackson is the owner won't affect the vote

--There is no doubt that there are people who dislike the connections of Rachel and like the connections of Zenyatta

--In a close vote, that could make the difference...How sad.

very true and I'm sure a lot of people on the internet have their opinion swayed because of that.

I dont know much about Sherriffs but it was hard not to love him when they were showing him watch the races by the rail and how he was basically tearing up after Z won.

But it doesnt take away from the fact that Rachel had a much more impressive campaign. It would be an insult to horse racing if Rachel doesnt get the award. But I am totally fine with a co-hoy this year.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Hopefully:

--The fact that Assmussen is the trainer and Jackson is the owner won't affect the vote

--There is no doubt that there are people who dislike the connections of Rachel and like the connections of Zenyatta

--In a close vote, that could make the difference...How sad.

This is why, awards are so silly and meaningless. Their extremely biased.

I pointed out why Empire Maker should have lost the Eclipse Award to Funny Cide, but the real reason he lost the award was his connections werent very well liked, especially compared to the Funny Cide feel good story of the century.

Why dont you think Big Brown was more popular? Hmmm, I wonder.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

WHO CARES?

That would be an issue if she didn't run but once or twice all season. She danced many of the major dances and they happened to be dances that female horses seldom, if ever, and in one case, never had done victoriously. That is a campaign of epic proportions.

Does this really boil down to Rachel potentially having been in the JCGC setting the same ridiculously slow pace that Tizway and QR did over a quagmire of a track and beating up on your boy Summer Bird again? If so then you're grasping at straws as to why she's not the HOY.

This has nothing to do with Zenyatta needing to ship east as some have alluded to here. It has to do with what races she ran in when in her cozy home state. By the time Zenyatta ran in the Clement Hirsch Rachel had already done memorable things. At that point her connections needed to try the Pacific Classic or a similar race against males.

NT

Like it or not, it could cost her the award, given what Zenyatta did and the recency of it.

Not the same thing but I will mention it anyways...Empire Maker lost the Eclipse Awrd to Funny Cide in 2003, most likely because he only ran once after his Belmon Stakes victory over Funny Cide and it wasnt a win. It was a 2nd in a really weak Jim Dandy field. I think Strong Hope won that race?

Anyways, recency and races in the 2nd half of the year play a huge part in votes. Look no further than the mighty Miesques Approval!

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I'm sure many do care, if Zenyatta never ran a lick Sat, this would be a moot conversation.

NT

Somehow this always comes back to Summer Bird and my motives, why can't you believe me when I say I truly 100% believe that up until Zenyatta crossed the finish line Sat, I would have agreed with all that RA was HOY.

It's this simple I believe Zenyatta was far more impressive in her defining race than RA was in the Woodward her defining race. That to me is enough to give her the nod for HOY. Maybe one should define what HOY means, to me somewhere in that equation there should be a disclaimer that states who the better horse is and from what I saw, one was all out to hold off a mediocre to good horse like Macho Again to another flicking off the best males in training with easy disdain there is no question to me who I think is a better horse and that to me supercedes what happened in 2009 up until this point.

P.S Just a clarification, this is less about winning the Classic than in which the way she did it, losing a pace threat 1 min before the race, coming from dead last with a less then spectacular start, and closing into an average pace against the best males in training and winning with much left in reserve. She is a very worthy choice for HOY when one examines just what she did Saturday in addition to preserving her unblemished career.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

Somehow this always comes back to Summer Bird and my motives, why can't you believe me when I say I truly 100% believe that up until Zenyatta crossed the finish line Sat, I would have agreed with all that RA was HOY.

It's this simple I believe Zenyatta was far more impressive in her defining race than RA was in the Woodward her defining race. That to me is enough to give her HOY, in my opinion she is the better horse, maybe one should define what HOY means, to me somewhere in that equation there should be a disclaimer that states who the better horse is and from what I saw, one was all out to hold off a horse like Macho Again to another flicking off the best males in training with easy disdain there is no question to me who I think is a better horse.

The thing is... its is easy to point out the Classic as Zenyatta's "defining race" because the rest of her races were so average.

The Woodward was NOT Rachels only "defining race"

The KY Oaks was a "defining race" for sure

The Preakness was DEFINATELY a "defining race"

The Haskell was IMO, her most "defining race"

And her awesome Woodward was also a "defining race"

I'm sure you could also throw in her record setting Mother Goose as a "defining race" also.


So if you are going off of each horses "defining race".. its obviously Rachel.