Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

[Antitrust32]

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

Considering how short his career was, definitely.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

He'd have a much better chance than Peace Rules or Big Brown for a top 20.

Absolutely no way top 5 though. He buried an extremely sucky Derby field, and had narrow wins over the ultra sucky Great Point and Sharp Humor .. those were his 3 dirt wins.

His turf wins were great .. but they came as a 2yo when turf racing isn't even a thought.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He'd have a much better chance than Peace Rules or Big Brown for a top 20.

Absolutely no way top 5 though. He buried an extremely sucky Derby field, and had narrow wins over the ultra sucky Great Point and Sharp Humor .. those were his 3 dirt wins.

His turf wins were great .. but they came as a 2yo when turf racing isn't even a thought.

So, by use of your illogic, the fields Barbaro beat in Fla (dirt) were better than the 'sucky' derby field he buried, since they managed to finish much closer to Barbaro?

I realize you will try to bait me with that argument until one of us dies, but dude, cmon.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

So, by use of your illogic, the fields Barbaro beat in Fla (dirt) were better than the 'sucky' derby field he buried, since they managed to finish much closer to Barbaro?

I realize you will try to bait me with that argument until one of us dies, but dude, cmon.

Barbaro's 3 lifetime dirt wins:

* 1st by 3/4 of a length in the Holy Bull. 2nd place finisher Great Point's lifetime best Beyer is a 96 .. and he's currently running for 5K claiming tags in Puerto Rico. My Golden Song was 3rd.

* 1st by a half length in the Florida Derby. Sharp Humor was 2nd. He never won another race in 3 more tries.

* 1st by 6.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby. Bluegrass Cat, who was beaten 21 lengths by Sinister Minister in his prior start, was 2nd. Steppenwolfer was 3rd. The same Steppenwolfer that just ran 6th in a Steeplechase race at Fair Hill the other day. A horse who has never ran a triple digit fig once before.


I'm sorry, but he beat absolutely nothing on dirt. And only once did he even ever run fast while beating nothing. I'm sure he was improving .. but he's so much more about what he might have done than what he actually did do.

Big Brown's Ky Derby win was clearly more impressive than Barbaro's. His prior form coming into the Derby was also more impressive. That's why BB was a strong favorite ... and Barbaro was only vying for favortisim with Sweetnorthernsaint and Brother Derek.

And if I'm not a big fan of Big Brown at all... how could I think much more of Barbaro?

As far as turf racing though ... Barbaro and Incurable Optimist were probably the two best 2yo turf horses I ever saw.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Barbaro's 3 lifetime dirt wins:

* 1st by 3/4 of a length in the Holy Bull. 2nd place finisher Great Point's lifetime best Beyer is a 96 .. and he's currently running for 5K claiming tags in Puerto Rico. My Golden Song was 3rd.

* 1st by a half length in the Florida Derby. Sharp Humor was 2nd. He never won another race in 3 more tries.

* 1st by 6.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby. Bluegrass Cat, who was beaten 21 lengths by Sinister Minister in his prior start, was 2nd. Steppenwolfer was 3rd. The same Steppenwolfer that just ran 6th in a Steeplechase race at Fair Hill the other day. A horse who has never ran a triple digit fig once before.


I'm sorry, but he beat absolutely nothing on dirt. And only once did he even ever run fast while beating nothing. I'm sure he was improving .. but he's so much more about what he might have done than what he actually did do.

Big Brown's Ky Derby win was clearly more impressive than Barbaro's. His prior form coming into the Derby was also more impressive. That's why BB was a strong favorite ... and Barbaro was only vying for favortisim with Sweetnorthernsaint and Brother Derek.

And if I'm not a big fan of Big Brown at all... how could I think much more of Barbaro?

As far as turf racing though ... Barbaro and Incurable Optimist were probably the two best 2yo turf horses I ever saw.

You can throw around cute little pieces of trivia that doesn't matter like that, but fact is, the derby really was his first race, including turf, in which he put everything together and didn't run green.

As for favoritism, obviously that was due to what was to most people, unimpressive dirt starts. What I saw in those two races was quite different than what you saw, which after all this time is still puzzling.

[dalakhani]

lava man?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

lava man?

If the criteria is three surfaces within one state then he wins.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

lava man?

He was killer on Hollywood Park's turf course anyway.

He's tricky because a horse like Gentlemen was a better dirt horse and a better turf horse ... but Lava Man came at a down time in the quality of racing and that allowed him to have a little better looking resume than a horse like Gentlemen.

Atticus is interesting ... in his final 2 career starts, he won the Grade 2 Arcadia on the turf by 3 lengths with a 115 Beyer ... than won the Grade 1 Oaklawn Park Handicap on the dirt by 3 lengths with a 114 Beyer. He was 2nd in Europe in a Gr 1 English Derby prep as a 3yo as well... but possibly didn't do enough to slip in a top 20.